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Valentine's Day Dwarf Rework

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Admiral_Munson, Feb 14, 2017.

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What do you think of this Dwarf rework?

  1. Rock solid +1

    15 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. It has potential but needs work +0

    8 vote(s)
    32.0%
  3. Bad -1

    2 vote(s)
    8.0%
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  1. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    Goals of this rework:

    Eliminate most of the nutty Dwarf damage.
    Keep defensive usefulness but eliminate its campy nature.
    Replace cheap, garbage game-play with game-play that requires skill beyond point, click, and block.
    Completely change how the class works: move from unkillable flag-room troll to mid-ranged support class.
    Make Dwarf more mobile than your disabled grandmother.
    Make Dwarf playable in team-matches.

    Dwarf:

    Tools and weapons:

    Diamond axe
    4 steak
    Iron axe
    Stone axe
    Gold axe
    Compass

    Armor:

    Diamond chest-plate
    Iron leggings
    Leather boots

    (7/10 or 14/20 total)

    Abilities:

    Crushing blow - right clicking the stone axe enchants it allowing Dwarf to deal true damage and 2.5 seconds of slowness I to whatever enemy it hits. 7 second cool-down.

    Dwarven Steel - right clicking the iron axe gives Dwarf 5 hearts of absorption, increasing its maximum health to 15 hearts. 40% of damage taken to allies in a 9 block radius redirected to the Dwarf. Effects last for 3 seconds. 12 second cool-down.

    Golden Heart - right clicking the golden axe temporarily de-buffs all enemies within a 9 block radius for 4.5 seconds. Damage taken (through armor) by the Dwarf from buffed enemies up to 2.5 seconds after the 4.5 second period heals allies within a 5 block radius for 30% of damage taken*. 17 second cool-down.

    *if Dwarf dies before the 2.5 second period is over the healing effect is cancelled.

    Dwarven Fury - right clicking the diamond axe enchants it with sharpness I and sends a fire charge into the ground knocking any enemies in range back 4 blocks across and 3 blocks into the air dealing 4 hearts true damage. Effects last for 3.5 seconds. 30 second cool-down.*

    *Getting a kill with the axe during Dwarven Fury reduces the cool-down by 30%.

    All hearts listed in this post are in FULL hearts, not half hearts.

    Cooldowns work the same way as they do on Mage spells (via the XP bar).

    Creits to @Proterozoic and @Versions for invaluable feedback and criticisms (especially to Chaos).

    @Nohox
    @Miskey
    @b0squet
    @TheZombieKat
    @gamren

    Posted in CTF Discussion because no one reads ideas section. What do you think?
     
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    #1 Admiral_Munson, Feb 14, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  2. Versions

    Versions CTF Mod

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    nice one
     
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  3. Magnificent

    Magnificent Dallas Fuel

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    anything better than current dwarf tbh
     
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  4. obikenobi21

    obikenobi21 Delta Force Jedi

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    Winters Bite: What's the range on this? Could you just look across the map and call down a bunch of snow, or is there a limit? I would propose something like a mage snowball to target the area if there is a limit.

    Dwarven Steel: I like it

    Heart of Gold: Removing buffs temporarily is actually pretty cool, however the second part seems really situational. It requires for enemies to be buffed, and for enemies to be hitting the dwarf. idk, it seems to me like it would see little practical effect.

    Dwarven Fury: I like it, although the cooldown seems really large for a game like CTF. Then again, we don't really have any long cooldowns so I don't know how it would play out. On a seperate note, would a soldier be able to wallclimb his way while under the knockback of Dwarven Fury, or would this lock them in place (similarly, could a ninja pearl out, etc...).

    I do like the direction this rework took Dwarf, out of the campy bs it is now and more of a mobile tank support.
     
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  5. Miskey

    Miskey Leader of Annihilation | Admin | Media Manager

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    Bookmarked, will reply tomorrow.
     
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  6. Proterozoic

    Proterozoic Wiki Team is a Semi-Staff Rank

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    Not really thought about this yet. I naturally assumed it would be around the dwarf itself, but again I'll ask

    I loved the idea of removing buffs too. We got into the math behind this and we couldn't really work out effectively what the best percentage heal is good. The problem is if it's too high, you could potentially have a situation where the dwarf takes massive abuse, survives and then heals everyone in a particular place by 10 hearts, which basically saves the entire group of people. On the other hand, it could be so weak there's no practical effect with the average heal. It's a bit of a balancing act and I don't think we've quite got it sorted yet. If you've got an idea for that, please do tell @squishycalvin because I'll be happy to run through the calculations and see what would happen again

    I liked this simply because it was powerful but long cooldown, specifically because it's not used a lot in ctf. The effect instantly removes a steak worth of health, plus knocks people around a lot and so it's definitely got the power. Admittedly I didn't even think of the mobility effects you suggested so I'll have a think about that.

    Yeah, I like it in exactly. It's changed to vital support without being too ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
     
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  7. Nakatago

    Nakatago Well-Known Member

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    Will there be a mana pool? I was just thinking imagine activating all the abilities in an offensive push, particularly in a flagroom like VoR's.
    Tanking, healing and slowing all at once seems a little OP to me, that's all. Maybe have a max of 2 abilities activated at the same time and then have the mana pool recharge over 5 seconds or something? Just a suggestion idk.
    Also, for the fire charge, it says "enemies in range" but doesn't specify what that range is, unless I misunderstood something. What is the range?
    Otherwise, love the idea, really hope it gets accepted.
    @Proterozoic
    @Dankmastr_Memesn
     
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    #7 Nakatago, Feb 15, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  8. JayOG

    JayOG Ex-wArZ MoD (ง'̀-'́)ง

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    ha memes C:
     
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  9. Cardona360

    Cardona360 Well-Known Member

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    +1
     
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  10. Proterozoic

    Proterozoic Wiki Team is a Semi-Staff Rank

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    Could be a thing. It was originally more synergistic than this version and I did point out that it might be a bit overkill for flagrooms if all of these were used together. Hopefully the cooldowns will somewhat help that (if you use all of them at 1 time, you've got nothing left for next time!) There's also a possibility we could make the abilities finite rather than regenerating (so you need a medic to use them)

    The healing isn't actually as much as you'd think even though it sounds like a lot. The power really is associated with the tanking and damage redirection, and using those 2 abilities together you can take some serious abuse before dying.

    Could work, 5 seconds isn't a lot of time given the recharge rates of the abilities we got here. My guess is you won't even be able to feel much of a difference. That idea might work though, with different scaled recharge times. Would also require we removed the XP bar showing cooldown thing.

    Haven't discussed this yet, open to suggestions though!
     
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  11. Nakatago

    Nakatago Well-Known Member

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    It would have to be reasonably small, since it could do some seriously damaging stuff to defense on maps such as blackout, where the actual flagroom area is tiny. Possibly 3x3, assuming the dwarf is standing in the middle? So it'd be a range of 1 block in every direction.
     
  12. THECOMMANDER5643

    THECOMMANDER5643 Well-Known Member

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    @Dankmastr_Memesn
    All in all, I think it's a very good rework idea and I like the way you're taking dwarf from defense to support/defense in midfield, however I do see a few potential flaws in the general idea.

    Overall, the class itself has potential, but it seems like it will become a class with too much potential to do literally everything, making it limited to 1 per match, if not completely banned in competitive play, seeing as it has the following:
    • AoE Slow (Soft CC)
    • AoE Friendly Damage Reduction
    • Self Health Increase
    • AoE Enemy Damage Reduction
    • AoE Team Heal
    • True Damage Knockback
    • 4 Steak
    While all of the concepts contained in the class are cool in their own way, having them all be contained in a single class as separate abilities is too overpowered. As such, i'd recommend that the class be focused more on the support/defensive aspect for the team with the following changes.

    Winter's Bite - Removed. While CC is good for supporting your team, its a bit OP on such a good support class as this.

    Dwarven Fury - Good idea. This offers the offensive aspect of this class that allows it to play more roles than its intended support/defense role. I'd keep the knockback as it is, while reducing the true damage slightly, to 3 hearts.

    Heart of Gold/Dwarven Steel - I'd combine these two abilities into one better supporting ability more suited to keeping your teammates alive. See following.

    Dwarven Courage - Applies Absorption 2 to the dwarf for 5 seconds, adding 10 absorption hearts to the dwarf. All allies within a 9 block radius of the dwarf have 50% of the damage they take redirected to the dwarf. At the end of the 5 second effect, the dwarf is healed by an amount equal to half of the redirected damage taken. This ignores damage applied directly to the dwarf. If you still want to have the ability for the dwarf to assist in chasing down flag carriers or such, this ability can also apply speed 1 for 3 seconds to all allies within the radius upon activation.

    Reduce steak from 4 to current 3.

    Cooldowns remain the same on all abilities.

    This Removes the following aspects from the dwarf:
    • AoE Slow
    • AoE Enemy Damage Reduction
    • AoE Team Heal
    • 1 Steak
    Leaving the dwarf with the following
    • Improved AoE Friendly Damage Reduciton
    • Improved Self Health Increase/Heal
    • True Damage Knockback
    • 3 Steak
    These changes will allow the dwarf to excel in its new midfield/support role, while keeping it slightly more balanced in the terms of the game meta.
     
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  13. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    Hi Commander, appreciate the deap feedback.

    I agree with a few exceptions.

    The AoE slow only lasts 2 seconds, making it good for utility but not much for crowd control except in enclosed spaces or in some recovery scenarios. The health increase isn't as much of an actual increase in hp as it is a shield. I think you would agree that enemy damage reduction is needed considering how absurdly strong buffed teams are (buffed Ninjas and Heavies each do 4.5 to 5 full hearts per hit) so I wouldn't say an ability cancelling those effects for a few seconds is particularly overpowered. Also as @Proterozoic has said above, the AoE team heal only heals for a few hearts (8 maximum, assuming one were critically hit every half second by a buffed Ninja). It's significant but it really isn't anything that would turn Dwarf into a second Medic.

    Agreed. It's been removed and replaced with a non-AoE ability.

    What's the difference between 3 hearts and 4? 1 heart. 4 hearts is fine.

    It's a neat idea but I don't agree with it. What's the point of the healing mechanic if it 1) doesn't heal for that much and 2) only heals the Dwarf? It makes much more sense to have (as far as support is concerned) if the Dwarf is tanky, takes a lot of damage, but also heals allies for a modest amount of health.

    Keeping it at 4 for reasons listed above.

    I've lowered the cool-down on Dwarven Steel from 15 seconds to 10 to compensate for the lack of a low cool-down ability after removing Winter's Bite.

    I don't want more balance. Balance is boring. I want this class to be useful without being crazy strong. And right now, that's exactly what it is.
     
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    #13 Admiral_Munson, Feb 15, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  14. obikenobi21

    obikenobi21 Delta Force Jedi

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    [/QUOTE]

    My main problem with the heart of gold was actually that the enemy needs to be buffed for your heal to actually do anything. The dwarf can't do anything about that, so if the enemy's not buffed this ability is useless.
     
  15. THECOMMANDER5643

    THECOMMANDER5643 Well-Known Member

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    First, glad to offer constructive criticism Dank. Its only fair, seeing as its both the right thing to do, and you offered very constructive criticism on my Trapper class idea. Secondly, I misread your abilities when I first read them, but now that I have a greater understanding of the abilities I have a suggestion for two abilities that both increases the strategy needed to play this class effectively, and the differentiation in the possible battle scenarios for the class.

    As kenobi stated above, by activating heart of gold, you are limiting the healing capabilities of the ability to a 2.5 second window, effectively rendering the ability useless. Therefore, i'd recommend the three following changes, along with some new math calculations, to dwarven steel and heart of gold.

    1. Change the de-buff from a temporary removal to a permanent removal. This change makes this tool an extremely potent one in the current meta, and it also makes it much easier to code.

    2. Move the de-buff from Heart of Gold to Dwarven Steel, changing the Heart of Gold ability's duration and healing potency as necessary.

    3. Remove the absorbtion health shield from Dwarven Steel and apply it to Heart of Gold.

    These changes make you have to think about which ability you want to use first, and in which scenario.

    Do you want to use your Dwarven steel ability to remove the opponents buffs and effectively increase the health of your team, or do you want to let the enemy damage your team so you can heal them for some of the damage that you've taken, while increasing your own health?

    Or do you want to combo both abilities together to remove the buffs from the enemy and increase your own health, allowing you to tank for your team longer, but removing the healing potential of your ability?

    These changes while they may seem small, will make the gameplay of this class infinitely more exciting and interesting.

    On a side note, given the abilities of the class, I'd change its role from mid-ranged support to offense or offensive support. Given the abilities, it's going to be used to attack flag rooms and chokepoints 10 times more often then it will be used as a defensive class. Not that it can't be used on defense, as it would also be strong in that role, but its primary role will be offense.
     
  16. maggi13

    maggi13 Member

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    Good job with this! I really like it.

    Dwarf has always been a quite boring class especially on maps where the main clashes are in the middle. In the defense it was very strong but too slow to kill an enemy with higher armor such as soldiers, medics and heavys.

    For me the debuff idea sounds great in times where it feels like half of all players are chemists.

    All in all: A solid work :smile:
     
  17. Nakatago

    Nakatago Well-Known Member

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    So everyone likes it. Yo @Miskey can you try get this accepted as well as Necro in matches ;D
     
  18. Miskey

    Miskey Leader of Annihilation | Admin | Media Manager

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    Overall I like the idea. There are a few potential balance issues that I'm not sure about, but I'm sure that could be clarified with some explanation.

    What is the true damage on crushing blow?
    What are the debuffs on heart of gold?

    Note: 30% reduction for a kill on dwarven fury may be a bit much in the current meta, especially on defense. If you kill one person in an offensive wave you're almost guaranteed to have it back up for the next one.
     
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  19. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    Hi Miskey thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.

    2 full hearts (as the stone axe deals 0.5 less hearts damage than the stone sword). The primary function of the ability, since it can only be used on one enemy every 7 seconds, is for utility (could be useful in defense or recovery) rather than dealing much damage.

    It removes all buffs. However, this could be changed to removing strength and speed only since those two tend to be the most problematic...

    What do you think?

    Agreed. Would you prefer to see that removed or the base cool-down lowered? For example, the Dwarven Fury cool-down could be reduced from 30 seconds to 25 but the 30% reduction (upon getting a kill) would be removed or the reduction could be removed and the cool-down left unchanged.

    I'm glad you like the idea.
     
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  20. Spades_

    Spades_ Least-Known-Well-Known Member

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    Just not the current dwarf tbh, btw love the idea +1 I hope this idea gets some serious consideration
     
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