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It's time to stop

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by Admiral_Mas0n, Mar 13, 2018.

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  1. Admiral_Mas0n

    Admiral_Mas0n Dank Memer

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    yo waddup its ya boi

    6 months ago I made a thread about staff applications being left up for a really long time. At that time - per a reply from Trogs - that was happening because Brawl didn't really have a staff manager.

    Now Brawl has 2 new admins yet posting an app is still like wandering into the wilderness without any idea when your 40 years are up.

    To use a few current, and prior, examples...

    All of @Pyrotheum's applications. Denied after 30 days, denied after 40 days, and still pending after 31 days.
    Both of @Carnotauros' last two applications. His current one has been up for 28 days.
    @Charlie_0014's current application. It has been up for 31 days.
    Both of @Unifier's applications. His first got 54% +1's and was denied for ts3 after 25 days. His most recent app got 80% +1's (over 60 votes) and was denied for DANK MEMES after 22 days.

    One point that has been made before is that 4 new jmods were accepted so apps are being dealt with. But not in anything approaching a timely manner

    @NickManEA's app - left up for 34 days
    @NMHRODMAN1SBEST's app - up for 43 days
    @MoistMayonnaise's app - up for 39 days

    SuperBen's app was also up for a whopping 54 days although the circumstances (going from inactive -> very active over that time) were a little different.

    Apps that have no chance of being accepted also get left up way longer than they should. For example:

    Screen Shot 2018-03-13 at 11.15.59 AM.png
    82.4% -1's out of 35 votes. Why hasn't this been denied?

    The requirements state that you should be active in all areas and with an inkling of maturity. But I think that's missing the most important req: patience. Because you have to wait a long-ass time for a reply on your application.

    I don't like complimenting munchy because its owned by an idiot and survives off the views on his dying youtube channel. One thing they do right, however, is efficiently accepting or denying staff applications. I looked through their staff application section and almost every single app has been resolved within 2 weeks or less.

    It's unreasonable and unfair that anyone should have to wait 20 to 30 let alone 40 days to be accepted or denied. Either someone meets the requirements or they don't. You don't need to have a 1 or 2 month think to figure out if they do. Please fix this.
     
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    #1 Admiral_Mas0n, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  2. Unifier

    Unifier Well-Known Member

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    Alright, so I do agree with most things said here, both my applications did take a long time but I've had some interesting conversations with specific people in high places and they did explain me why it takes so long still very annoying hence it's a whole month that you're waiting hoping to get excited news but I would indeed like to see the most blatant accepts / denials dealt with faster. I would like to point at @xxMineSheepxx who has an insane 90% +1 and I don't think anyone would be able to find a reason for not accepting her within short time.

    However, as a counter argument to what I said above, applications need to be considered deeply and thought through hence that person might as well end up being an admin on the server someday, so you need to be 100% certain that this person is trustworthy with the powers they will be given.

    To be fair, the admins were assigned rather recently so it isn't completely fair to add them to the "part of the slow accept system".
     
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  3. 0racle

    0racle Former Raid and Reports Manager

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    Sometimes monitoring them over a long period of time if staff have concerns about them is better than denying them on the spot. I know this isn't the case for every app, but it is more beneficial for the applicant imo.
     
  4. SoullessAngel_

    SoullessAngel_ Ex-Mod | Writer | WildWest

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    They’ve still had a few days to figure out their stuff. Give the admins their new jobs and promote the worthy and hard working mods to SMod so they can pick up where Eil and Miskey left off. Why give the staff members in charge of servers new ranks with more power than they need for their previous jobs?
     
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  5. Admiral_Mas0n

    Admiral_Mas0n Dank Memer

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    Deep consideration does not imply a 30, 40, or 50 day wait. And sure, you could have an instance where someone overqualified applies but an irl thing comes up and they can't be present for an interview for however long etc. etc. but this is consistent for most apps so it isn't limited to a circumstance.

    Also some of the applicants are 12-14. I'm pretty sure they aren't going to become admins.

    That is the case for more controversial applications (Pyro's apps, for various reasons) but it should not be the case for all apps. I mean, how long do you have to monitor people like @MoistMayonnaise @GalaThundR or @xxMineSheepxx to determine whether or not they should be able to mute, kick, and warn when they've never done anything questionable?

    and controversy aside... its absurd that pyro has had to wait 30-40 days to get denied on his last two apps and then wait roughly as long to apply again. I'd be annoyed if that happened to me

    True. I'm just curious if this will be resolved now that Brawl has more than 2 administrators.

    Agreed. But it is not beneficial if someone who is overqualified (i.e. @MoistMayonnaise) has to wait almost 40 days for their app - which has 90% +1's - to be accepted.
     
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    #5 Admiral_Mas0n, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  6. 0racle

    0racle Former Raid and Reports Manager

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    Which is why I said in some cases, not all.

    I also don't think that arguments should be based on the poll results. Although it does give info on what the community wants, which is very valuable, it is a very minor factor in whether or not someone gets promoted or not imo. There can be a lot of hidden details about an applicant that the community is unaware of, only observable by being a staff member. For this reason specifically, I think its appropriate to leave an app up while everything is getting a thorough viewing. Besides, how harmful is it to wait? If you are genuine and keep up your staff like qualities then you shouldn't be sweating. Staff should be patient anyways, and I personally don't see a need for all of these threads to be made. I do however realize that some applications should be dealt with a lot faster, but there may be things happening behind the scenes warranting a longer process.
     
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  7. xFiendfyre

    xFiendfyre Indestructible.

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    Ehh...yes. Brawl does now have 2 more admins, both of whom are very competent, but we should give them a bit of time to settle in, you know?
    I'd love to see an announcement regarding staff roles coupled with some well-deserved promotions before we come to any heated agreements or disagreements on here.
     
  8. Admiral_Mas0n

    Admiral_Mas0n Dank Memer

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    I didn't assume that it was. Pikmin had almost 100% +1's when he reapplied in 2015 and was denied. However many of the people +1'ing someone are also staff members and their opinions tend to carry more weight than community members. That is also why the large majority of accepted apps have 70-90% +1's - because people who have that much support also have a lot of support from the staff team

    An issue might come up which forces someone to withdraw their app because they cannot be on Brawl for however long
    player loses interest and goes inactive
    player gets denied and decides to not reapply instead of waiting another 1-3 months to reapply and (possibly) get accepted

    I think its reasonable to hold high standards to avoid accepting immature people or sociopaths into the staff team but I don't think waiting an extra 10 days on an app (20 days versus 30, for example) is going to make all the difference in the world. After all, most applicants are not judged on what they do while they're applying but on what they've done in the past. Pyro was denied on 2 of his apps because of trust issues after he abused as builder. I was denied because of consistent disrespect to other members & staff over the past 2 years. And NHMRODMAN has had a lot of scrutiny, mainly on his prior apps, for his long punishment history in 2016.

    Anyone who is serious about applications knows that they are under additional scrutiny while applying and that they should clean up their act (if necessary). If you really want to know what they're like you look at their previous posts, threads, chat messages, punishment history etc. and it does not take 30-40 days to do that.

    There is a difference between being patient and waiting an excessively long time for your app to be handled.

    Also I would not have made this thread if the problem that existed 6 months ago was not still a problem.

    we have 2 new admins.
     
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    #8 Admiral_Mas0n, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  9. Lekosa1

    Lekosa1 mineman
    Build Team Wiki Team

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    I guess SMOD+ are busy but it takes like 10 seconds to deny an obviously bad app. Still can't understand why they take so long.
     
  10. avisel03

    avisel03 Member

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    .... That's cruel. However, I do agree with you but also I have a wavering opinion. The staff should not be chosen by brawl players, but by the higher-ups instead. I am surprised myself that people said no, but I do think that my poll question was a bit off. But again, I am conflicted on this thread :smile:
     
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  11. Trogy

    Trogy Troggo

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    I also made that post 6 months ago
     
  12. Charlie_0014

    Charlie_0014 Build JMOD

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    Avisel, seeing that you joined the forums this month and your staff application was your second post, no one thinks you have the activity and experience on Brawl necessary to be a staffer. Plus, since your application was your second post, you aren't following this thread if you even read it. Then, by "complaining" about people voting no to you, no, those weren't troll votes, they don't want you to be a mod, plus, those threads show "immaturity", if the higher-ups ignore them and make you a mod, which they won't, threads like this and this will be made, so stop complaining, it's only making your situation worse.
     
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  13. 0racle

    0racle Former Raid and Reports Manager

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    It seemed to be a point you focused on a lot in your OP and I was just commenting on what I have seen / acted on in the past. Yes, it shows support, but the a lot of the time, I'm sure the majority of those votes probably aren't aware of all of the details and it most likely boils down to "are they nice to me or not".
    The issue would still arise if they were accepted. I don't see why someone should be denied if they have a legitimate reason to be away from brawl for a little bit as long as they communicate it - exactly the same as staff inactivity. If they know it will be a long time, then they should request a denial or resign in either situation. As for them losing interest, they shouldn't be staff then if they will lose interest that quickly - all from having to wait for their app to get accepted. Tbh I don't see why you're using this as a point, to me it shows that they shouldn't be staff if they will just get discouraged so easily and is no different than people quitting after getting denied, shows that they aren't doing it for the right reasons.
    I do agree with most of this, that high standards are a good thing and past issues should be taken into consideration if they do not show sufficient improvement, however, I've seen in many cases that issues arise when they have applied and it will take some time to evaluate whether they deserve the chance or not. Again, I am speaking from experiences I have seen, and there are most certainly outliers that should have been dealt with a whole lot earlier.

    If your app is up for a long time I would try to think why it is taking so long and try to fix the issues that I thought would be making me "frozen" in a sense. A good and genuine applicant (imo) would just try harder here instead of getting discouraged and giving up / losing interest as you previously mentioned.

    As of last thursday - I personally don't think it's reasonable to expect an immediate change in things. I do assume applications will be dealt with a lot faster in general once things settle down, but I do think people need to keep in mind that it isn't unusual to have a rather lengthy investigation into an applicant while their app is up - regardless of the poll or staff support, some things aren't known by everyone. Timezone conflicts / inconsistencies will make things more difficult thus lengthening the application reviewing process so I think people in general just need to be patient with things - keep on trying and try to understand why your app is pending for a while if you feel discouraged.
     
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  14. Yorei

    Yorei Well-Known Member

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    I'd agree with you completely, but this has always been a problem with Brawl. Did you know it took my application almost two months to be accepted? and that was three years ago. I think your point still stands though, and it takes wayy too long for them to make a decision. If they are iffy about someone they should just downright deny them instead of leading them on, or at least accept them giving them a chance at the trial mod position (whatever the **** that is anymore, it seems like "trial" just isn't what it is)
     
  15. 0racle

    0racle Former Raid and Reports Manager

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    Sort of off topic, but regarding the trial rank, I do feel like the position is very... unproductive. Yes, it limits their power to gain a feel for things and whatever else, but it is so rare for someone to be demoted from a the position due to slow progress, or multiple mistakes. In my opinion, there needs to be more regulation on trial mods and more corrective actions placed on the mistakes made here (not saying people aren't doing a good job, but more so to potentially increase the quality of staff members / speed up things at lower levels). Adding onto this, I don't think I've ever seen a demotion for a ton of errors / false judgement being made. Although I don't think people should be demoted easily for mistakes like these (as they are rather small imo), correction should be made in a lot more structured way to again improve the quality of the staff team.

    Back on topic though, imo, denying someone just because of a small doubt isn't really a good thing. This would be a lot more discouraging to me, and by giving them a longer time to prove themselves / answer questions I think the application process is a lot more fair towards the applicant as long as the concerns are communicated well.
     
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  16. _featherpaw_

    _featherpaw_ Your friendly neighborhood kitten! :3

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    I'd like to point out that while it's completely valid to be upset, mods wait months to be promoted, sometimes years, so your argument about being patient carries slightly less weight.

    That isn't to say I don't agree with you, because I do. I think it's unreasonable to have staff applicants wait weeks for an answer. However, complaining about it is a sure sign that they aren't willing to wait, something that is invaluable on Brawl especially. Brawl enjoys waiting until **** hits the fan before working on any fixes, so the amount of time to wait for a response is tiny in comparison.
     
  17. Admiral_Mas0n

    Admiral_Mas0n Dank Memer

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    Difference between being staff and not being staff. Judging from the threads you've made in the past I think you'd agree that you have more influence as a staff member (jmod+ not wiki team lol) than a community member. From that POV and the fact that if and when mod promotion happens is more on the jmod - knowledge of hacks etc. - than the smods/admin (except the hack test) I don't think its exactly the same thing

    I don't agree with that but I wasn't staff so there's probably a lot of things I'm not aware of. I'd just like to see apps dealt with in a much more timely manner, when possible, because its good for the applicant and good for the server.
     
  18. Spades_

    Spades_ Least-Known-Well-Known Member

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    Applications are up for quite a long time, whether that's people don't see it, they don't have time to respond, they forget to respond, or whatever, it happens arguably more often than it should. However, I'm gonna use an example from accepting or denying someone into TBF as an example:

    Let's say I see an applicant that is obviously not going to be accepted for a variety of reasons. The council still has to vote on whether or not this person gets in or not. This process can take anywhere from a few hours to a few days, simply because we have to wait for everyone to vote. So an applicant can be left waiting way longer than they should have just to get a denial. A similar thing more than likely happens with mod apps. If there are quite a few good applicants, I imagine it can take some time to fully process them.

    If it takes 30-40 days for an applicant to be processed, then they probably need that time to confirm how trustworthy and active that person is. Getting denied after that amount of time sucks (trust me, it's happened to me twice) but I'm still pretty determined, so tbh I'm willing to wait.
     
  19. avisel03

    avisel03 Member

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    If you read my reply carefully you would see that I am actually agreeing with this post :smile: I think that my experience in the brawl server itself is enough, I did not think forums would count. But it's okay :smile:
     
  20. SoullessAngel_

    SoullessAngel_ Ex-Mod | Writer | WildWest

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    It’s stated in the thread that you are REQUIRED TO READ BEFORE APPLYING that you must have forums activity.

    “However, Forums activity is almost as important as in-game. The forums are made up of our more active and helpful community, thus the ones that get to take part in making decisions and creating suggestions for the servers. It is our job as moderators to keep our specific section clean, help users with their questions, needs, and to let our opinions known. In order to accomplish this, you must be active and have a working knowledge on how our forums works. Members look up to staff members and their opinions, so it’s important to be active and help them out to the best of our abilities.”
     
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