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A randys thoughts on the ctf game(revised version of new person thoughts, with some more knowledge).

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by TheMaelstromsEye, Jan 25, 2016.

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  1. TheMaelstromsEye

    TheMaelstromsEye Well-Known Member

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    Due to a heated conversation with someone on ctf yesterday about classes. I made a revised version of my other topic about the classes. This is where I talk about what i have learned in the game so far, and the classes.

    #1- The arguments between abusing and using classes. The reason why people want some classes nerfed is when the class is abused. Medic teaming, instacapping(now ghost capping), archers sniping at spawn, pyros at spawn, etc. Abusing the classes that you love is only going to get them nerfed later down the road.

    #2- The hostility of the community. I cannot be the only person to notice the difference between how the people act when the staff are on and off. Last night some new person began raging and the community or at least some of the community pretty much erupted against the person, it all stopped of course when a mod said something. I just think that if one person of the community doesnt like you, and has tons of friends, they will make sure to let you know that they do not like you.

    #3- The staff. I know this is a touchy subject becuz duh, its the staff; but I honestly do applaud the hacker banning efforts done by the staff. I also take notice that the staff that are on do need to settle a discussion that is getting heated before it gets worse. Yesterday that rager said that his/her mom died and then someone said that "i wonder why", I just think that is asking for trouble. I know its hard to do all this, I am just giving my insight to all of this. The staff are doing a great job as a whole, especially wintergreen.

    #4- The classes.
    • Heavy- I have played a game as heavy and I basically see it as the main class for pvp due to its high armor and good steak. It is basically useless against a pyro though. It is a good class for beginners that just want to pvp. Sure Tysonyoshi and other pvp mainers can agree.
    • Soldier- I have played this before the nerf and after it. The difference is spectacular even if people say there is no difference. Remember when soldiers could spam their sword to climb up walls and pretty much be uncatchable on some maps. Yea, thats pretty much done, you need to practically have a medic on standby to get back to the flag on some maps from how hard it is to get the flag and get back. The nerf is perfect because people can still cap, but it cannot be spammed as much anymore. People complaining about the nerf need to just stop. Soldier is more killable but still able to cap, and that was the point.
    • Medic- 2nd-3rd best capping besides soldier and ninja and the best healing class. Medics web ensure a getaway and help trim down a ninjas health if you force them to use ninja pearls cause they get in the webs. Medic is also a good defense player because it can web exits and entrances so flag carriers cant escape as easy. This comes with a problem though cause you could trap the recoverers instead.
    • Archer-The best range class and is in between on the hated scale by the community. Cappers hate it cause they usually get sniped by archers, and I just have to be like, archer was made to snipe people, you dont see archer running in to cap a lot. If you complain about archer sniping you, thats the same thing as complaining because a heavy killed you with a sword. Archer is a balanced class, it just has a good instakill.
    Thats it for now(i am trying to be unbiased as much as possible).
    Tell me if you want my new diagnosis on the other classes.​
     
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  2. theronguard1500

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    Archer and Pyro are both situational insta-kill, pyro's rely on their opponents being on fire and their opponent not being a medic, archers rely on their opponents being at a far distance, and them having the accuracy to hit them. Classes are fine as they are i think.
     
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  3. jarboyp

    jarboyp Bunny Defender

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    Good job. This is a nice summary of what pretty much happens on CTF, in an unbiased format.
     
  4. TheZombieKat

    TheZombieKat CTFer since May 2012

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    Winter is bad.
    I agree with you when you talked about Heavy. It's great for those of us who just want to pvp. One thing though: Heavy can easily kill a Pyro due to their low armor. The only thing that stops us from doing that is the frenzy mode, or being lit on fire.
     
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  5. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    That's not a good thing TBH. Heavy and medic should not both be hard counters to pyro.
     
  6. TheZombieKat

    TheZombieKat CTFer since May 2012

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    If you think about it though, Mage is a pretty hard counter against Pyro. Same with Assassin.
     
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  7. BAWSS5

    BAWSS5 Well-Known Member

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    Heavy isn't a hard counter to pyro.
    It's a soft counter.
     
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  8. TheZombieKat

    TheZombieKat CTFer since May 2012

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    ^^^ Pyros can still 2 shot a Heavy, and Heavys can 3 shot (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong) a Pyro.
     
  9. Rohaibcheema

    Rohaibcheema Active Member

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    archer is balanced hahhahahhahahahahha, archer has a good instakill hahhahahhahahahahha, same thing as a heavy killing you with a sword hahahhahahahah
     
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  10. BAWSS5

    BAWSS5 Well-Known Member

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    Archer is balanced in a self contained sense. All the classes are.

    It's just that none of them are balanced against eachother.
     
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  11. TheMaelstromsEye

    TheMaelstromsEye Well-Known Member

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    correct, every class has a yin and yang, a class its op against, assassins are almost always able to kill a pyro due to no blocking, same with mage. Ninjas can kill other ninjas, assassins rekt everyone. Its a fun game, and the classes only get nerfed because of abuse. soldiers op climbing got nerfed because everyone abused the infinite climbing. The maps themselves got nerfed with that coal so soldiers couldnt climb on the sides of it. Yes, i know what that coal is for, i tried it out with the flag...didnt go well.
     
  12. ACE_BLUE2

    ACE_BLUE2 Sup'

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    In my opinion, the reason classes get nerfed is because a multitude of players don't use said classes the way they were intended to be used. For example, archer. Its' purpose is ranged recovery and crowed control, from a distance. Most archers go to midfield and snipe passerby's, or just fire into hightraffic areas, instead of playing objectivly. I do this as well, and I have been trying to play more objectively. I found when simply playing defense, you get easier kills, a lot more recoveries, less targeters, and much more praise and support from teammates. Think about it, if archer was simply made for mass murder, why would it have limited arrows, why not give it infinite arrows. There is no reward for camping, as said camper will lose arrows quickly, and recieve many deaths due to "rage-killers", and, imo, campers deserve to be targeted. Thanks for the ideas @LordChaos_92
     
  13. Proterozoic

    Proterozoic Wiki Team is a Semi-Staff Rank

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    As @Aceblue2 says here, if archer were truly made for total killwhoring, you would give the class unlimited arrows to do that job, because as soon as you limit the arrows you limit it's ability to kill everything. Without the unlimited arrows it doesn't have a permanent presence (unlike mage, which with it's unlimited health it can potentially stay somewhere indefinitely). To those who would argue that this is overpowered, well yes it would be, but equally the class could also have been balanced in a way which would have balanced that added ability (like for instance weaker armor as we see on mages). When you look at archer you notice whilst it is more bulky than some classes, it doesn't particularly have the staying power to be permanent with it's current setup either, and so you see a lot of archers running from those classes with less bulk than they. I understand 128 arrows is a lot to some people, and you can indeed get a lot of kills with it, but it's still not permanent, and if we're talking about average archers, we see that those arrows could be gone pretty quickly. Archer is not like heavy, soldier or whatever, it doesn't last the length of the durability. You have 128 potential shots, and then you have to heal or reselect your class. In short, it's simply not a class designed for absolute mass killings, just has the potential to do so.
    Just to add to the camping aspect of the argument, yes you can potentially get more kills whilst you're camping without dying which could be seen as a reward for doing so. That isn't a reward for the archery itself. My suggestion would be that would be the reward for killwhoring. A lot of people mix up the objective of killwhoring, and the objective for archer, which is fairly reasonable since archer is a killing class. However, the way archer is set up purely does not encourage camping. If you look at the class itself, there are no stationary blocks included that would benefit the archer, no particular bonuses for camping or the like. The only thing that could potentially be seen as a benefit to campers would be the potential added kills, which as I've already stated is a benefit of killwhoring, and the headshot range, which could be exploited defensively whilst camping. For this second reason I would state that would encourage playing out in the open so that you have enough room to attempt the headshot rather than camping and only in that one area. Good for kills yes, but you limit yourself in range and therefore how much you have an effect on the game.

    Now that I've explained that, I can get onto my opinion! (if you're still with me after reading that, then well done!)

    I want to first make clear that you can use the classes in any way you so choose. It's pretty obvious that you can since there are no rules, only abilities which would help you perform the intended role of the class (dwarves can still cap after all!) With that said, class are most definitely used in a way which could be considered abuse, and in a way that annoys a lot of people, who want to change the class to prevent that "abuse" from happening. Continuing with the archer theme, camping and spawnkilling isn't explicitly encouraged by the abilities the class has, but people still use it as a way to kill*****. Now as you've all heard by now, I truly hate this use of archer as anyone can hit a group of people heading out of spawn as it's almost impossible to miss! Nevertheless people use it in that way and it annoys people no end! I think in that situation if it's annoying people and not even giving players the chance to get out of spawn, let alone play a role, then there must be something wrong and the class should be inevitably changed in a way to stop that from happening. I don't think every way people abuse a particular class to do something other than it's main role is a bad thing. Dwarf capping is humiliating for the enemy team, but it's not really annoying because it's pretty easy stopped! On the other hand some ways the classes are used other than their main role it could be considered abuse and that's where we have to draw the line and fix the class in my opinion. I will however state we should be talking about fixing the class rather than outright nerfing it. For a start if we continue to nerf we go into a spiral where everything keeps getting nerfed. That can hardly be a good ending. Secondly, people like power! They like to be able to have power when using stuff in a game, and by continuously nerfing you diminish that and make it less fun for them. I would suggest that people abusing a class in a way that has a negative impact on the game be fixed, but it should be fixed, not outright nerfed. If that means buffing other classes to balance rather than nerfing it, then that should be the route we should take, not a continuous spiral of nerfs!

    To be honest, this post is getting long so I'll finish by saying class abuse isn't the only thing that makes people want nerfs, but it does have a part to play. We should also be thinking not of what we could nerf, but what we could balance. That means we could buff as well, as long as the intended balance effect succeeds
     
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  14. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    This amount of text hurts my eyes.
    But somewhat agreed I think?
     
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  15. November

    November november

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    hello boomdrone
     
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  16. Snowleak14

    Snowleak14 Well-Known Member

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    lol
     
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  17. Cliff_92

    Cliff_92 Well-Known Member

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    helo boomdone
     
  18. Rohaibcheema

    Rohaibcheema Active Member

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    boomdrone :^ )
     
  19. BAWSS5

    BAWSS5 Well-Known Member

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    I'd just like to point out that since dying is a very temporary inconvenience that conveniently restocks all your health and supplies,
    Archers have an infinite number of arrows. They will never run out of them, because to them, dying means that they've lost maybe 30 seconds and likely a damn sizeable but ultimately meaningless killstreak.

    So yeah, the entire part of that argument that revolved around archer having limited arrows (and I mean bro, two bloody stacks of 'em) is quite wrong.

    Just so ya' know.

    Also, its' ability to kill everything relies entirely upon how many blocks away somebody is, and that's it. Archer has no hard counter, nothing has total immunity to it. Literally, if an archer can see it, it can OHKO it. And it can do it infinitely.

    Again, though, if this were a game of nothing but archers, then there would be no problem, and archer would be perfectly balanced out. It's just that this isn't a game of nothing but archers. I would love it if it was, but it's not.
     
    #19 BAWSS5, Jan 25, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
  20. TheMaelstromsEye

    TheMaelstromsEye Well-Known Member

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    I understand, but i dont see archer getting nerfed anytime soon.
     
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