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Health + Steak (A general proposition on instant kills)

Discussion in 'Ideas' started by Sir_Inge, Aug 4, 2017.

?

Retool Instakills?

  1. Remove them entirely by adding new mechanics (Think pyro rework)

    6 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. Use a mechanic like this

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Keep them as is

    9 vote(s)
    60.0%
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  1. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    Currently, two classes have the IK ability: Assassin and archer. Many people have proposed reducing damage from an IK to 9 hearts true, but 2 steak fix that and most classes move on hindered but not neutralized.

    So, how about taking steak and health with a devastating ability that allows for teamwork or a good combo attack to quickly end an enemy if used effectively and skillfully. Here's my proposition:

    Take assassin for example: let's say that instead of one hit killing players when the redstone is used, the assassin instead deals as much damage as the opponent has health minus one half heart and uses one (this number can be changed/tweaked) steak.

    This would be equivalent to dealing as much as 17.5 hearts of damage to an opponent and leaves them very vulnerable. To prevent this from basically being another way to instakill, the assassin would have to be prevented fro dealing damage for, say, 0.5-1 second after the redstone is used, giving the victim a chance to heal with what little steak they have left. Remember though, assassin has an iron sword, so how well will a soldier, for example, fare if they run low on steak? 4 hearts could amount to a 2-3 hit kill for a skilled and quick assassin. Combing and landing quick hits would become essential.

    Simple enough right? But what about classes with no steak or what if you just run out?
    Tough luck. Those classes or people in that situation would basically be left to die with a half heart of health. This means ninja, mage, chemist, and assassin (duh) all now have a hard counter in this potential tweak to assassin. Mage would need to have a heal spell ready ASAP and pray they don't take serious damage before the region kicks in. Ninja would basically be dead. Chemist could heal quickly, but splash potions take much longer than steak. High steak classes like Medic would become more useful against assassin and archer.

    So how does this apply to archer?
    I've heard (first from Lugia or Zzy back on MCPvP almost 3 years ago I think) propositions that would scale the damage archer does based on how close the arrow comes to traveling 30 blocks, its 3 blocks dealing 9.5 hearts true damage. This would be implemented for archer with a 30+ block hit also consuming a steak and a 40+ block hit (not even sure this is possible with render distance) consuming 2. An additional slow poison effect that bleeds off 1 heart over 10 seconds would be needed to actually give archer the kill on low-health players who could otherwise run to a medic if out of danger.

    So in all, I think taking a steak in addition to the true damage is a good replacement for an instakill.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Claod

    Claod Well-Known Member

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    This would actually be a really hard nerf on archer and assassin. The primary ability of these classes are to kill, not bring the enemy down to half a heart and let them escape. If you want to remove the instant kill (which I wouldn't recommend), you need to buff it some other way. Similar to how pyro had its insta kill removed and replaced with the frenzy ability. You must give archer or assassin an equally powerful buff to the nerf or else it will become another necro.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. scapezar

    scapezar Tzar of Scapes

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    If a noob critically injures their target but doesnt kill them, there would be absolutely no satisfaction in that. (unless we add a very well done damage assist system, which would display such a shot like its a kill, but even then nothings better than a full elimination)
    It's perfect for a competitive scene, relying more on skilled players and teamwork, but that's not what CTF has completely ever been and will be - noobs run minecraft unfortunately and most likely forever will.

    Instakills however are easy and fun.

    That's why I strongly believe to keep them but to just either nerf other aspects of the class or make the instakill harder/longer to do.


    (now that I'm looking back on it, I think old pyro, maybe minus it's spammable F&S, was actually a great balance reference -granted all the other classes were more buffed than today and could more easily counter pyro- just like how heavy has also been)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    #3 scapezar, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  4. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    except for the people getting instant killed

    kinda like how engineer is fun for one dude and unbelievably annoying for everyone else.

    with a bleed. Still has not been tested (to the best of my knowledge)

    without a bleed then ya, eliminating instakills and replacing them with true damage on archer is like, the dumbest idea ever

    So devastating it is a lot worse than the current ability

    Neat idea but doesn't really work in the current frame of assassin. You need to factor in armor and the damage reduction that comes with it. Like, the way you have it set up, it would be impossible for assassin to kill any decent heavy. This is due to both 1) fact that heavy has best damage reduction in the game, 2) best damage reduction combined w/1 steak or medic heal means assassin would need a bunch of hits to kill - while heavy can 2/3 shot assassin (depending on health, whether or not heavy crits), and 3) assassin vulnerability, which you haven't (i have seen nothing to the contrary in this post) removed. this allows assassin to be 1 shot for a short period rather than 2-3 shot later.

    also, landing quick hits is already essential on assassin. yes, the class is dumb as hell but it does take some skill to really do some good sh*t with it (i.e. recovering off of @CTFIsBoring)

    What

    mage and chemist can still use their respective healing pots. Those heal for a lot more than steak (especially w/Mage) so this isn't really a counter if they have those pots or they aren't on cooldown (mage)

    i mean yeah... but Mage can just use lightning/ice spell if it needs another second or two for the heal. Then it can kill assassin ez pz

    depends. ninja is already hard counter to assassin. w/this rework it's an even harder counter. ninja could go invis and 1-3 shot the assassin. any skilled ninja can do that, even at 1/2 heart hp (and especially when assassin can't do dmg for ~1 second)

    Chemist has potions of instant healing lol

    agreed on medic. it would be a good counter vs. this assassin

    i really hope that wasn't from me xd

    not a good idea. why would you punish archers for landing shots?

    ???

    ??????

    I like the idea of a bleed but i can almost guarantee you that a 1 heart bleed over 10 seconds is not going to land any kills. even necro zombies do more damage than that

    only scenrio where it would is if archer 1) lands consecutive shots, 2) medics do not exist, 3) enemies do not heal/steak, and 4) trees/anything taller than 5 blocks do not exist (open maps, this could work. however, if you have cover archer is screwed)

    look i'm all for dumping instant kills and replacing them with mechanics that aren't stupid, but what you're suggesting are not those mechanics. the assassin rework (that's more or less what it is) is a hard nerf which makes it impossible for assassin to take out anyone with cc, high armor, passive regen, health potions, or intelligence while fixing none of the underlying issues with the class. those issues being? extremely lopsided gameplay. either assassin is incredibly good or incredibly terrible. There is no in between because ur only purpose is to be a roving instant kill. the other big problem is that success w/assassin is highly ping based, which should not be the case with any class. Also assassin is ninja for lazy people but that's a personal shtick that goes with my feeling that assassin should've been removed like, 4 years ago.

    as for the archer rework, it's just bad. i don't say that to be rude, but i legit don't understand why you're punishing archers for being good. How is that fun? Oh ya, you headshot someone (didn't get the kill cause true damage xd lul) and then you lose steaks for it. now you're more vulnerable to ninjas, heavies, mages, other archers etc. I agree that archer should be squishy but it shouldn't become squishier for doing what it is literally supposed to do (i.e. consistently tilting large numbers of people at long range)

    How is that fun?

    i mean, if we're not making things that are fun for ppl to play, what are we doing here?
     
  5. SoCool21

    SoCool21 7 Year McPvPer

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    Good. Archer is stupidly overpowered and annoying to play against, and assassin needs an entire rework anyways.

    Pyro is still quite a powerful class without it's instakill - it just means it requires slightly more skill to kill opponents. People were to used to Pyro being guaranteed a kill when someone tried to cap - now this is no longer the case. 7 hearts a hit is no joke - it's still not easy to capture and you're usually left low enough for ninjas to quite easily pick you off. Assassin and archer will do the equivalent of 17.5 hearts n0w - that's not what I'd call "another necro".

    Not for the noobs who get instakilled all the time and have no idea why. Noobs like ASFJerome, who hated archer when he played CTF back on McPvP (back when ASFJerome actually had a viewer base).
     
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  6. Claod

    Claod Well-Known Member

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    Yes I agree that archer and assassin need a rework but I'm not so sure about a system where you have to wait for a teammate to clean up. For archer, even if you land the second shot as archer, you can't kill them because it just keeps them at half a heart, which is slightly ridicoulous. If you had a flag carrier across the map with only 2 hearts and you pull off the most MLG shot, it wouldn't even kill them, not even if you made it twice. A nerf like this would see a significant reduction in people playing archer (like necro). Even if this archer could deal 13.5 - 17.5 hearts of damage, it's less than an instant kill. While archer in the hands of an experienced player could be a nightmare for new players, noob archers struggle even now with the IK to get a kill. Same for assassin, where you could be so close to killing a soldier and it wallclimbs a away. This nerf would result in less noob archers and assassins (and probably some of the expereinced players too). A change like this calls for at least an ability like pyro's frenzy.
     
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  7. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    Yes, with a bleed.
    WITH A BLEED (Ok I proposed a weak bleed but STILL)
    Whoops I got excited
    Okay. Maybe do this:
    Assassin has 2 levels of redstone use: an instakill frame where it is vulnerable and an additional 3-5 seconds where it does only true damage with its sword, thus negating armor.
    Chemist pots take like 1/2 second or so (+rxn time) to land so if there's a teammate waiting with the assassin to recover or something and both get to the chemi within that timeframe, there ya go. Mage is similar, but mage also has the ridiculous cool down,
    Mage would have to hit that spell before the assassin hits them. If the mage hot hit from behind the probability o one of those spells hitting is basically like 10%-0%
    Okay, a silled ninja won't die outright, but they'll be crippled and made basically immobile.
    More like 1/2 second away healing
    IDK do you wanna pull up the old MCPvP website and look?
    Consuming 1 enemy steak
    2 enemy steaks
    Ok, how about 5 hearts over 5 seconds?
    Point(s) taken, but I think a steak for instakill mechanic combined with an increased damage mode like frenzy will allow for a more fun mechanic than instakills.

    Here's my reaction to me killing a heavy with assassin
    "ye we won -_-"

    With pyro:
    "Let's GO that took some skill"

    With mage:
    "FINALLY do you know how many COMBOS that took?"

    No installs is more satisfying for the player and opponent unless that player can't get kills without it, in which case they're a noob and are abusing a broken mechanic to compensate for their lack of skill and probably main engi.

    Agreed on the ability, but stop using "noobs who can't get kills" as logic to justify your viewpoint. If they're a noob who can't get kills outside of an instakill, they're compensating for their lack of skill by abusing a mechanic that allows them to negate any skill their opponent has. These people probably main engi.
     
  8. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    ya i'm dumb. misread the part about Archer steak (this is what happens when you reply to idea threads at 2 am). thanks for clarifying @Sir_Inge

    with that in mind, it's not such a bad rework. I don't know how effective it would be at getting Archer kills, though. Would need testing

    anything that can't guarentee an Archer kill like, at least half the time, from 30-40 block range is going to wreck the class. Not your fault, Archer is hard to rework without instakills since its ability to get kills is almost entirely dependent on instakills from a looong range (where getting second hits is more difficult than for other classes).

    i thought the goal was removing instant kills?

    true damage sword is interesting but, imo, assassin needs a complete rework

    That's a lot of 'what ifs'. What about the knockback Chemist gets from its damage potions? Or the slow from poison?

    Mage can just lightning under them and (probably) knock away the assassin. Also freeze spell - although it's harder to land

    Ninja can egg + strafe hit.

    I agree. Mechanics shouldn't be so lopsided that it's really fun for one person and highly unpleasant for everyone else.
     
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    #8 Admiral_Munson, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  9. scapezar

    scapezar Tzar of Scapes

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    @Armiral_Mugman @BrawlIsMyCity

    I feel like we should cater to noobs with some classes. Yes instakills are annoying as heck but for example with archer if you give them slightly worse armor so they're easier to target by a skilled ninja or mage or even an elf then that can balance it out. (The noobs can have fun until skilled players use teamwork to shut them down easily.)
    (When skilled players play instakill classes, ofc they're more potent but still can be nearly as easy to kill or distract by other skilled players - for matches we have the leisure to restrict them so the game isn't centered any more around killing/distracting them)

    And I do believe instakills attract noobs - even if they get instakilled themselves. Because the mechanic is so easy, if they do get KO'd like that they would read chat and see that it was an archer's shot or assassin and with the right in-game helpful tips they would try to play that class (which you can see lots of new players actually tend to play archer). But with the reworked pyro, they could get lit up and frenzied by a good skilled pvper; however, when they try to KO others they have massive trouble doing so (dying in a few sec more often than not).

    Yesterday some guy who joined back for the first time in years mentioned how he loved pyro and now it's trash (sure trash to players who don't have the high skill level to play it - thus a turn off for new or returning players who want easy fast fun - again, we're still providing other classes for example ninja and chemist and even elf for players who can use their high skill cap/learning curve classes and teamwork to easily counter the instakill classes when they choose to, so it can be a win for everyone)
     
    #9 scapezar, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  10. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    you can't have a balanced game with instakills. ya you can kill an archer more easily from melee if you nerf armor or remove the punch. That doesn't make archer's long ranged instakill any more fair though

    fun classes & gameplay attract "noobs". if gameplay with an instakill class happens to be fun and gets someone to stick around for another half hour on ctf 2 then god bless. That doesn't mean that instakills attract new players

    that's assuming 1) all new players suck and 2) new pyro is incredibly difficult to use

    neither of those things are true

    So? that's one dude. I haven't seen any mass exodus of players since new pyro.

    the main complaint about new pyro was double click frenzy. This surfaced less than an hour after the rework was released. It has since been changed to single click. Not nearly as many complaints now

    as further proof that instakill classes are not essential to a good time let alone to drawing in new players: old necro. back in the day it had a fire, sharpness IV (something like that) sword, 1 minute poison II potions, and three zombies. It was extremely fun to play because you could do so much damage with it - no instakill required.

    What isn't fun and what does turn off players are classes like elf and new necro, and the changes made to them. it's way too hard to do particularly well with either class and, as such, they are some of the least played classes in the game.
     
    #10 Admiral_Munson, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  11. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    Read the first sentence, going to day this for the third time today:
    Instakills aren't fun for anyone. Not the class user, not the opponent. It takes no skill, brings you no fame, allows new players to negate skills of more experienced players, and is a relic of a game that was so unbalanced it necessitated a mechanic like this. Ultimately:

    If you need installs to get kills, you have no skill and need to stop playing CTF or get better at PvP.
     
  12. Salty_Ivan

    Salty_Ivan Active Member

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    Literally gives Chemist, Mage and Ninja more time to heal themselves and/or use their respective counters to Assassin if they aren't blocking.
     
  13. scapezar

    scapezar Tzar of Scapes

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    Idk I still feel like there can be a balance of letting instakills be and letting anybody who wants to attack/target the instakiller first succeed. hey a rhyme lol
     
  14. Sqrt_MinusOne

    Sqrt_MinusOne New Member

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    As an Archer main, I get that people are frustrated with getting headshot. However, Archer has an incredibly crucial place in the CTF meta. Having an Archer not be able to actually kill someone at range (this is what it sounds like when you say drop them to 1/2 a heart, please correct me if I'm wrong here, I feel like you can't be actually suggesting this) is absolutely crazy! Killing people at range is the whole point of Archer! If you want Archer to only deal 9.5 hearts of damage to someone, I'm actually totally cool with that, but if that would kill them then they should die. If they had steak, well, that was a risk they took. If they had steaked earlier they might not be dead now. In pvp you don't get a second chance to steak after getting hit, and hitting someone with an arrow at range shouldn't give second chances either.

    In terms of instakills in general, often the only way to break a stalemate is through an instakill. Ordinary damage is often not enough, especially given the various ways of healing a flag carrier (medic, chemist, mage, engi). Removing these instakills would make recovery far harder then it already is. Personally, I like CTF because it's fast-paced. Making it easier to hold stalemates drags the game out and is, at least in my opinion, more boring. I think that instakills are a necessary evil; people kinda hate them, but they are too necessary for the health of the game mode to effectively remove. (Pyro is not an instakills but it accomplishes the same thing; damage that happens faster than someone can reasonably respond)
     
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  15. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    Oh no.
    No no no no no no no.
    Let's break it down.
    Here comes the bias. It's like me posting about mage or wool. Do you really expect an honest, balanced opinion?
    Do you? because you seem very fine with keeping the instakill when there are alternative mechanics that could actually, you know, balance CTF? For every noob that rolls on the floor laughing after head shots a heavy, there's a noob heavy who has now punched a hole in his monitor.
    Yes, it plays a crucial role in the meta, the role being providing computer parts stores with revenue due to all the broken keyboards, mouses, monitors, and associated computer paraphernalia. 9.5 hearts true damage with damage over time is basically a death sentence to most classes unless the person being hit is fresh out of spawn and not engaged in PvP, in which case, why the hell is the archer shooting them other than to troll? I mean, really? Furthermore, a one hit kill from an archer is hardy realistic. It's an arrow. Unless it goes through your chest plate or bursts an organ or breaks an artery something, you'll probably live if you clean out the wound (however medicine in medieval times was questionable so people died that way). So why would it be realistic or fun to kill a full strength enemy in CTF? Rhetorical question: It's not.
    Tl;dr: It's not crazy, it's accurate.
    Yes, because taking 13 hearts of damage over an incredibly short period of time will kill no one at all. Less people will die, of course, but that's the point of removing an OP mechanic... less people... will die... not OP...
    Which is actually less damage than I'm suggesting
    Things that kill you are very deadly, yes.
    Pause
    Umm, what? You do get a chance to steak after getting hit unless the class hitting you is assassin. This is how pretty much all PvP works, whether its soup or steak or potions or whatever. When you get hit, you can heal if you have the items. That's how, like, any online multiplayer fighting game works. Like this mechanic is in COD and Halo and stuff...
    Did I miss something or is this sentence just very wrong?
    Yeah, no. Assassin is a good recovering class if the person isn't looking behind them or is running away fro multiple recoverers. How do you counter assassin? Really simple. Block. In a stalemate, assassin is useless. Archer can kill the flag carrier, but some serious teamwork is required to not have another player guarding the flag carrier use pick it back up.
    This is more a reflection on how absolutely broken engi is and how crappy teamwork can be than anything else. Chemist is not a common way to heal a flag carrier and mage is even less common. Mage would probably control midfield and pick off potential recovering ninjas and assassins. Tell me, how does as assassin survive an engi turret for an appreciable amount of time? How does archer recover a flag from 30 blocks away? Oh wait neither things often happen.
    No, it wouldn't. Recovery in the situations you're talking about is impossible for any remotely fair mechanic at all. Teamwork might help, but casual CTF has none of that. I can see how installs being removed from assassin might change how a defense pursues a carrier out of the flagroom, but archer rarely makes those recoveries. Anyways, this proposed rework would probably kill the carrier anyways as they've in all likelihood used at least 2 steak on the way out unless the defense is terrible, in which case they don't deserve to be bailed out by an instakill ex machina.
    CTF isn't fast paced. CTF plays at the speed of baseball. Sometimes there's lots of stuff going on and a lot of action, but it mostly involves futile attempts to score and much standing around. And this won't change stalemates as I said earlier.
    I said this about pyro and I won't be taking another L.
    We've seen it's not and Pyro deserved an instakill more than archer did because pyro was an incredibly defense-based class that allowed for flag rooms to be locked down and keep CTF in a flags at home stalemate rather than a two steal stalemate. Furthermore, this was before the soldier rebalance. Pyro was the fourth class in CTF and a direct repose to solider's OP climbing ability. Additionally A two steal stalemate leads to engi camping and medic camping and all that which is infuriating. Pyro was less infuriating but still rather frustrating and we've 100% survived that rework.


    And you've just proven my point that installs can and should be removed. You're telling me a fresh outta spawn heavy can't beat a frenzy mode pyro?
    Wrong. That was never the case before. Pyro would win a 1 on 1 with every class except medic.
     
  16. Sqrt_MinusOne

    Sqrt_MinusOne New Member

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    I have a feeling that we are talking past each other here; rereading my post I realize it is far less clear than I first thought, so let me try again.

    I am perfectly fine with Archer not having an instakill. 9.5 hearts true, 8 hearts, whatever, as long as it is reasonably crippling (like pyro's frenzy) I don't care. I consider pyro's frenzy to be basically an instakill. 9 times out of 10, it the pyro frenzies, the opponent dies. Both Archer and Assassin would be fine with the same.

    What I do care about is that Archer can get kills, and the impression I got from your initial post is that getting hit by an arrow would reduce the player to 1/2 a heart and then bleed that last bit off over time, even if the player is lower than the amount of damage dealt. If an arrow does 8 hearts true, and an Archer hits a player with 5 hearts, that player should just die.

    The other issue is breaking stalemates. While assassin cannot effectively break stalemates, Archer most certainly can. Given that Archer needs teamwork anyway to recover, it's not that big of an issue, but if an Archer takes 5-10 seconds from when the arrow hits to when the player dies, that will make recovery that much harder.

    To sum up: make Archers arrows scale with range, capped at 9ish hearts true (if you want to remove steak as well, sure), with no bleeds or last second saves, and you have a +1 from me. (I don't care enough about assassin to have an opinion).

    I hope this is more clear, if not, please let me know so I can respond with an equally inscrutable post.
     
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  17. ACE_BLUE2

    ACE_BLUE2 Sup'

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    The archer instant kill is completely unfair, at least assassin has the potential to be effectively countered, archer has zero risk and a very high reward. Fixing the class seems to be something the community can't agree on. This is something that shouldn't be nerfed too hard initially, rather eased into and well play tested. I could get behind your idea if it was eased back for now. As for archer requiring no skill, well, some archers are much better than others, so clearly it does, the amount of skill required is certainly debatable. There's not much skill in sword or ranged pvp to be perfectly honest, we're playing a block game here.
     
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  18. Unifier

    Unifier Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see the main archer players with mods to discuss some ideas, @Proterozoic brought up some very interesting ideas a long time ago but never really got any response on it (apart from community comments / some mods responding to it). Archer needs a rework rn but in my opinion, forgive me I'm not an archer main, in the current meta it should temporally do to just remove the punch I so we can have some extra time to work on a full rework of archer.
     
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  19. Sir_Inge

    Sir_Inge Well-Known Member

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    The amount of skill needed for a kill is based on how fast the target is moving... maybe the faster you're strafing, the more damage you take?
     
  20. Unifier

    Unifier Well-Known Member

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    That sounds really really dumb
     
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