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Anti-Stalemate Idea

Discussion in 'Ideas' started by Netflikx, Oct 28, 2018.

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  1. Netflikx

    Netflikx Well-Known Member

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    I think everyone can agree that blackout/opposites collide/any map stalemates are awful to play and watch for everyone. This idea, although it might not be perfect, could be used to help and end stalemates quicker.

    Essentially the idea is that whenever both teams have the flag for more than 1 minute, a respawn timer will commence starting off at 5 seconds. So whenever you die or /class, you will forced to wait 5 seconds before you can respawn. Then, for every 30 seconds that passes, it will increase by 1 more second. Because people will likely try to combat log their way around this, it would be ideal for it to persist through log-ins. This makes it so that the recov will have a better and better chance at recovering as time goes on. Once one team has recovered the flag, the respawn timer will end. Please note that I am open to suggestions for any number changes in this idea.

    I essentially derived this idea from league and overwatch. As league games go on respawn timers get longer and longer, and as overwatch overtimes get longer, the respawn timers increase as well. If it works for these games I'd reckon giving this idea a try for ctf.

    A respawn timer idea used to come up every now and then but usually got shot down because it doesn't correspond with CTF's "fast gameplay." I believe that this variation of the idea won't hinder this, but actually help, because it is intended to help stop stalemates.

    Thank you for reading and please give some sort of feedback on this idea.
     
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  2. ningeek212

    ningeek212 Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

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    That actually sounds like a good idea to me. I would want to test it out and see if it actually works, but I definitely see that good in adding a respawn timer. Often the one thing that really hinders recoveries on stalemates is the sheer amount of people respawning to support, so slowing down those respawns would be very helpful.
     
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  3. Netflikx

    Netflikx Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I completely agree that this idea would require testing. There really is no way to determine if this idea would bang or bust without gameplay testing.
     
  4. CoasterHamza

    CoasterHamza Well-Known Member

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    Imo this is a solution for stalemates in competitive ctf but make casual ctf more worse. I prefer something that can work in both casual and competitive. For this, in casual it not is good idea to force people wait in spawn _ time, especially when lot of people no trying to recov. Also this make instakill classes even more op, and this is a step I think we no need currently.
     
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  5. _Pai

    _Pai Active Member

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    I think this should apply to some classes only, or some more than others, especially in casual. A medic would almost definitely be involved in supporting the carrier, while a necro or soldier for example might not be, and while they certainly could, they'd have a lot less impact than a medic.
     
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  6. Paddy__M

    Paddy__M Member

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    This would be interesting, definitely down for this to be tested. Just imagine the tension of being stuck in a respawn timer and not being able to do anything while your teams flag carrier is getting slaughtered. Has potential to be extremely fun and competitive!
     
  7. Jeaniee

    Jeaniee New Member

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    Add It only to match server and keep casual without this change.
     
  8. Flaze__

    Flaze__ Active Member

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    This is a great solution to the endless stalemates, but this would be very annoying in casual, first for new players who have to wait every time they respawn (and they respawn a lot lol), and secondly just for anyone that is doing something else (you're not obligated to play objectively 24/24 and a lot of people who do not try to recover in stalemates would just leave). A minecraft server is not the same as a fully developed game like Overwatch because Overwatch's players are people who bought the game, know a bit about it and want to play it for a good amount of time so they won't stop playing just because of a respawn timer whereas ctf players are often just players who are looking for a new server and if they are getting bored by the very high respawn time, we'll have even less new players lol. I think as jean said that it could be used in competitive though, but if we can we should stop limiting things in competitive, and rather balance casual as much as we can.
    I really like the idea of respawning though, and why not reset the flags after a certain period and make everyone respawn? This would be a bit extreme but it could work.
     
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  9. scapezar

    scapezar aka Scape

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    ya maybe just on competitive servers, and not sure if increasing flag poison damage with time would be better or not....a flag poison change would at least not hinder the gameplay of anybody else and only affect the pro regular stalemate capper for either casual or comp

    sooo id side more with flag poison, still really good idea
     
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  10. Netflikx

    Netflikx Well-Known Member

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    I find this addition to be perfectly fine in casual. "Casual" and "Competitive" ctf are only different in terms of class limits and ninja capping. There is still one main objective that doesn't switch between the two, and that is to capture the flag. This change could possibly help with the ridiculous amount of friendlies. Also, it may not look like it, but this is a big change. It'd be ideal for casual and competitive to be as similar as possible in order to keep new players viable for teams.

    In addition, this only makes archer more powerful, not assassin, so be specific. This only requires the flag carrier and support to be more aware and cautious. And remember, both sides will be placed at this respawn disadvantages, so it evens out in which both teams can use this to their advantage.

    I don't agree with the idea of certain classes being at a higher disadvantage than others. For one it's too complicated to keep up with and second, it highly unfair. All classes should have the same respawn timer in order to keep things just.

    Stalemates in casual aren't very often, and even when they do occur they don't last as long anyway. And it's not likely that new players will just quit the game because they have to wait lol. Refer to what i said in response to hamza's message.

    The idea of increasing flag poison sounds good on paper but it's effectiveness can only be determined if tested. I predict that it just wouldn't work because it sounds incredibly unfair to the player that is holding the flag. It's like punishing the flag carrier for being good and successfully holding the flag for longer than the other team. Besides, if it gets up to like, 6 hearts of true damage all it will take is like 2 really well times ninja hits, which is not all fair to the player.
     
  11. CoasterHamza

    CoasterHamza Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with points here.

    First, you need remember half the people in ctf in normal focus other than game (people who just go for kills, friendlies run around). Forcing people stay in spawn when CTF supposed be a fast paced game I Feel will cause people leave, or make new people not like Brawl CTF. Especially in the mornings when there not many people in CTF, big time is in stalemates with little to no recov. This respawn timer will make for less recov in smaller ctf servers.

    For bigger servers (maybe 25-40 people), this encourage people for just focus on kills and not encourage to recov. Especially with a normal pyro and assassin with the flag, and more then 1 medic, most people stay away from recov and just focus to kill people, which cause less people for focus on game.

    In competitive CTF also I feel this take away from the fast paced CTF when the timer get long. When people wait 10-20 seconds in spawn after they die, it force people to change play style. Ninjas and assassins need play more careful and this is change the meta, for ninja, something I feel currently not needed in CTF (instead something like change the effects for eggs but this is other topic).

    Second, I believe all instakill become more OP. Archer is stronger yes, but same with pyro and assassin (pyro yes even though technically instakill only sddsssin and archer). Pyro can kill any recov and make they go away, which lead eventually less people on recov (as recov likely be soldiers, heavies, chemists when respawn timer is high). Assassin I feel this make more op, but has positive impact due to the nature of this class stay the same but it cause more people be alert for assassin if more people start and play (in casual, competitive is different because limits).

    Archer is different however, archers still come and even more op if they just focus to hs support, and can work if this plan can work, but after this plan is failed I feel recov discouraged, and instead teams start and turtle and/or focus on kills.

    This is personal opinion, in competitive CTF I feel this can (but I disagree) see, but in casual I feel this change meta too much and need a better solution, or no need anytbing for stalemates. But still I feel we need solution for casual and competitive.
     
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  12. Keelb00

    Keelb00 Well-Known Member

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    Although this solution would fix some problems (mainly flag carriers having an advantage from staying close to spawn), it adds in the frustration of being useless for a period of time, and affects some classes (squishy ones like ninja and assassin) much more adversely than other ones.

    Personally, I'm much more in favour of either a flag poison idea of a weakness debuff applied to the flag carrier after a certain period of time (some way to prevent medic healing could also be viable).

    I'm not really sure what you mean by "unfair". The change is "fair" in the sense that both flag carriers are applied the debuff, so there is still a balance in either team's chance of recovery. It's not punishing the flag carrier for being good, and they would have held the flag for the same amount of time as the other team. If the player is better than the other player with the flag, they will still have an advantage over them. In fact, I'd argue a change like this is even more "fair" in the sense that survival depends more directly on the skill of the flagholder rather than the skill of the teammates keeping them alive. How is having flag carriers be without support for 15 seconds any more fair than the flag poison change?

    I think a cap of maybe 5 hearts true damage would be appropriate, but the whole idea is to give an advantage to recovery instead of support. A better player would avoid 2 ninja hits better than a worse one would, but in the current situation it doesn't really matter if the flagholder is good or not (to an extent) because they can sit there blocking and have their team kill everything.
     
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  13. Netflikx

    Netflikx Well-Known Member

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    One of your main arguments is that this will hinder CTF's fast gameplay, which leads me to believe you didn't fully understand my point. When I say that this change will help fast gameplay, I mean that it will be in order to end stalemates much more quickly than normal. Currently, blackout stalemates can last up to the whole game, thus making gameplay slow and boring. However this change will incentivize for people to play smarter and strategic. Stalemates will not last as long and the game can continue on-wards. And why would you be against people playing with teamwork and not as reckless, isn't that the ultimate goal? To promote smarter gameplay? Right now a lot of ninjas and assassins and pyros just suicide bomb their way to recovs. For every change CTF brings there will be aftershocks in which all other classes are affected, so there's no need to focus only on how ninja and assassin will be impacted. So yes, this is currently needed in CTF.

    In your second argument, you mention that pyro and assassin will become more overpowered. Like I said this isn't the case for either class. Pyro is extremely vulnerable and is not very effective without support. It's low mobility makes it ineffective on solo recov as well. Assassin is just as vulnerable as it used to be, so there's nothing special about that either.

    Increasing flag poison is highly obsolete in the first place because of medic. A change to medic would have to be packaged along with this increasing poison tick or it will be completely mitigated with no trouble.

    When I say that this mechanic would be unfair, you have to think about the fact that this is out of the hands of the entire team. If the flag carrier dies to a stupidly timed tick of flag poison when they're at less than 5 hearts, there was nothing anyone could've done to prevent that. The idea I presented is much more fair because even though a carrier's support might be dying, it still allows for them to have some way to maneuver themselves out of a situation. And it's the entire team's cap, not just the carrier's, so if the support dies and the carrier is punished for it, then the entire team would need to work on ways to properly communicate and work together to solve these problems. It puts focus more on teamwork.
     
  14. Keelb00

    Keelb00 Well-Known Member

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    Medic doesn't necessarily make increased flagpoison an ineffective change. It is already a strategy for teams to keep a medic away while focusing down a flag carrier, this change would make it so that rather than having to keep the medic away and burn through 4 steak and then the health bar, instead constantly applying pressure has much higher potential to kill the flag carrier.

    I disagree that the mechanic is out of the hands of the team, in fact it is the job of the team to protect the flag carrier. It is the job of the support to not let their flag carrier below 5 hearts. The flag carrier is still able to manoeuvre out of the situation by avoiding damage and is still able to steak to avoid random flag poison. The focus in your idea would not be on supporting the flagcarrier, but in ensuring not a single member of the support dies. The recovery would not try to kill the flag carrier, instead they would just try to kill the support one by one until the flag carrier is overwhelmed. If anything, this promotes turtling as nobody wants to die.

    The potential rng of flagpoison might make it annoying, so an alternative could be to make the flagcarrier have a weakness debuff or some way to make them easier killed in a stalemate. Medic is also a big problem, but if it takes only a few seconds to kill a flagcarrier, then medic is not so powerful.
     
  15. scapezar

    scapezar aka Scape

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    If recov kills an enemy medic or ninja or whatever, that recov or that flag carrier is not going to last much longer anyways with an increased spawn timer or not - on most maps besides Blackout, they'd already be dead by the time support comes back. I think a spawn timer would slow down gameplay and honestly straight up turn off the fun for being forced to wait there like on time-out. The flag poison option I think would speed up gameplay for teams requiring to act faster in order to take advantage/disadvantage of this increased poison (no more than 5 hearts) e.i. medics on cooldown more often, easier time to team combo a successful recov, and support needing to be even more vigilant and helpful –i think would all contribute to faster action with everyone still having a fun experience and contribution.
    Tbh still less risky and few less contemplated disadvantages than an increasing spawn timer upon death during a stalemate. Not against testing at all tho
     
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  16. anto1001

    anto1001 Member

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    good idea, and this could let you add re spawn time features, i had some ideas some time ago but i forgot them
     
  17. Lugia_

    Lugia_ support =D

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    For a short term fix, this is a good idea.

    I believe that medic heal is the problem and once that is fixed the rest of the game can be altered, but obviously this is a long term fix that requires lots of testing.
     
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  18. Jeaniee

    Jeaniee New Member

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    Why not increase progressively the time of restore (14s actually) during stalemates instead of keep players without respawn for x time or make any bad change with the flag poison? This would suppose a big amount of pure damage recovs instead of have a recov possibility only with a frenzy/headshot what hardly happens if both teams know how to play well the game so stalemates last long and become boring.
     
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  19. Proterozoic

    Proterozoic Wiki Team is a Semi-Staff Rank

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    Agree with the premise. It's a bandaid but good for the short term.

    Disagree with the source of the problem. The problem is less about medic's heal being overpowered and more about it being comparatively overpowered. Classes lack the raw firepower to stop stalemates like they used to due to nerfs. We could solve this problem by nerfing medic heals, but classes are more fun to play when they're more powerful so I'd argue that would be the way to go
     
  20. ningeek212

    ningeek212 Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

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    I partially agree with these two statements, partially disagree. I think medic heal is a part of the problem, but not the whole problem. I think the general problem is that support overwhelms recovery 9 times out of 10. In terms of fixing this there are multiple ways. Of course the first way is, as Lugia stated, to do a bandaid fix (though, depending on how well it might turn out, it could be a long term thing).

    Ideally we would fix the root cause, which is what I'm for, though in combination with a tweak like this. In terms of solving the root problem, I wouldn't say just nerf medic heal, or just buff other classes, but more of a combination of the two. Slightly nerf medic heal (hey, I have a good rework that does this!) while also slightly buffing the weaker classes. Doing so would make stalemates not last as long, as well as making the overall gameplay more enjoyable.
     
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