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Looking for Feedback - Chemist Testing, Flag Carrier Health Reduction Testing, & Upkeeping

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by ningeek212, Dec 28, 2018.

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  1. ningeek212

    ningeek212 Yoshi Legend and Medic Main

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    Hi.

    Got some more testing for CTF again, woo! This time we're testing two things:
    1. Chemist has permanent resistance I as well as mana cost reduction for damage and health pots.
    2. Removing flag poison and instead reduce maximum health of the flag carrier at a slow rate. Specifically, 1 and a half minutes after stealing the flag, reduce the health of the flag carrier by 1 heart. After that, once every one minute, reduce the health by one heart. For heavier classes (Soldier, Heavy, Archer, Medic, Engineer, Dwarf, Necro), the minimum the health can reduce to is 5 hearts, and for weaker classes (Ninja, Chemist, Assassin, Mage, Elf, Pyro) the minimum the health can reduce to is 6 hearts.

    The testing will be live on all public servers from December 29th to January 6th. Get out and test some stuff, and also give feedback!

    Some up-keeping stuff for everyone. First of all, all 433 CTF maps are public on the build server, so anyone can look at them. Now for some unwritten rules for the team system we are finally writing down:
    • Refs can ref matches of their own team if nobody else is around to ref and both teams agree.
    • Maps can only be played in official matches if they have been in official rotation.
    • Maps that have not been in rotation cannot be played in official matches under any circumstances even if both teams agree to it/are fine with it (this includes vault maps).
    • Official matches must be reffed by a full ref, no exception. A referee in training must co-ref (ref with an official match with supervision from a full ref) 3 matches at a satisfactory performance in order to become a full ref.
    • The inactivity rule (force disband) has been removed, as well as the inactivity role.
    • Players cannot spectate their own teams official matches, even if both teams agree (with the exception of staff members).
    • Official matches need to have a thread before the match begins, no exception.
    • Threads must include at the minimum: Size, Maps, Rules, Limits, Time.
    • During official matches, spectators cannot use /a while the game is in progress.
    If there are any unwritten rules that we missed, please let us know. On a final note before we finish, we have now tested two different versions of ninja, one where we removed slowness from eggs and another where we removed blindness from eggs. We would appreciate it if everyone shared their thoughts on both of them as well as their thoughts on which one they thought was better.

    That's it for now
    CTF Staff Team :flag:
     
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  2. RockyRL

    RockyRL Member

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    To teammembers cant spectate: its not usefull, members still can watch stream, so they COULD ghost... with or wirhout this rule
     
  3. auromelt

    auromelt Well-Known Member

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    Don’t use any quickcommands that type in allchat either :’)
     
  4. Abtruse

    Abtruse Banned

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    I gotta say I dont agree with that being removed, its like shooting yourself in the foot with how inactive CTF already is, given that now your just letting it happen with no consequences.
     
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  5. Versions

    Versions Ban and Appeals Manager // CTF Staff Member

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    If this is implemented, there would be like 3 teams left, due to force disbands.
     
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  6. SoCool21

    SoCool21 7 Year McPvPer

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    Also forces new teams to play in official matches when they're not really ready to, they'd rather just practice and play in unofficials until they're ready to be competitive.
     
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  7. Versions

    Versions Ban and Appeals Manager // CTF Staff Member

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    I understand what you mean, but it would be difficult to prevent this from happening. We can't exactly stop them from watching streams. If you believe someone is assisting their team during a match while not actually playing in the match, please tell us.
     
  8. Dragoarg

    Dragoarg Well-Known Member

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    First off I think it’s a stupid idea the flag poison. But whatever. If you’re lower than the health you reduce to do you take damage from the reduction. Like if I have 3 hearts or whatever and reduce from 10 to 9 do I go down to 2 hearts or do I stay the same and just lower the cap?
     
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  9. Versions

    Versions Ban and Appeals Manager // CTF Staff Member

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    Your health stays the same and the cap just lowers to 9 hearts.
     
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  10. redslime

    redslime Developer

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    No.
     
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  11. RockyRL

    RockyRL Member

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    it
    but then it does doe make sense to add this rule, bc with the rule its possible to ghost and without the rule, so
     
  12. Spades_

    Spades_ Least-Known-Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t there used to be a stream delay so that specifically didn’t happen?

    @redslime
     
  13. redslime

    redslime Developer

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    the stream is naturally delayed by a couple seconds obviously, and it's possible to force-delay it by a few seconds up to like 2 minutes or so if needed. We've never used this option before though.
     
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  14. RockyRL

    RockyRL Member

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    but still u can say who is/was in flag room, for example: there are 2 pyros, or there is one assassin.
    And the different between beeing spectator and watching stream is not big.
     
  15. SoCool21

    SoCool21 7 Year McPvPer

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    Elaborate?
     
  16. RockyRL

    RockyRL Member

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    It is a Test and I think we can try it out, now is our possibility to Change smth, we can test it and then vote, if its good or not. If not the old Flag Poisen will come back, if we think its better it will stay as it is then.
     
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  17. Dragoarg

    Dragoarg Well-Known Member

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    This is clearly an update moving flag poison to make it harder to stalemate and hold for extended periods of time. In my eyes there’s two problems with this update.

    Stealing is gonna be a lot easier especially for ninja. In my experience, when i was active at least once every two matches I got a steal that could have turned into a cap had I not taken the extra damage from poison. If all I have to worry about now is people then all I have to do is go up really high and Kill a ninja and I can run it back. It’s rare ig but living on 3 hearts happens a lot and that’s two flag poison ticks. That’s the difference of a clutch cap that got away. And for ninjas I mean in a ninja steal you would take 1 or 2 flag poison ticks meaning you could only pearl three times untouched tops to get a cap. Now a ninja can pearl an extra time for a cap. Take blackout for example, you just pearl 4 times across the map without getting hit once, and cap in seconds. Or even in larger maps hitting 5 consecutive pearls to get to a teammate is easy.

    I also don’t like it cuz it’s taking away from players who are skilled enough to hold the flag for a long time. I’m not sure about the math of it but I’m pretty sure a soldier with 5 hearts can get 2 critted by a ninja with buffs. So instead of rewarding strategy or teamwork in recovery you’re just giving players a way to get it done easy. And the 5 hearts takes awhile to reach I’m sure, it there’s plenty of players who are good enough to reach that. It sounds like a good idea, but then you get games where someone is holding the flag and evading tons of players, but after a couple minutes you can just die after only a couple of hits. I don’t like that idea at al.

    All that said, killing stalemates is an idea that should be explored. I definitely think keeping flag poison the same is a good idea, but instead of weakening a flag holder maybe weaken the support around them, or even strengthen the recovery team. Like if you’re within 10 blocks of a flag holder on the enemy team, after one minute you do a halfheart of true damage to them, after another a whole heart, not adding on to your damage but converting some of your damage. Idk I just think it’s a bad idea but if people like it.
     
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  18. Miskey

    Miskey Leader of Annihilation | Admin | Media Manager

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    Ghosting a stream is a lot less of an issue. Realtime spectating allows you to go around the map wherever you want in real time and give callouts. Ghosting the stream leaves you perspective locked, often to flag carriers (which you'll probably have information on already while playing) and with a 15 second delay, which, given the pace of ctf matches, makes Ghosting incredibly ineffective. I doubt any of the players that would ghost are smart enough to use the information well anyway.

    Also just a note: I don't think reducing flag carrier max health is the correct way to deal with stalemates. With the current health reduction listed it's possible to die to multiple true damage combos with little to no counterplay. That last word is the issue, counterplay. We're essentially needing a necessary part of the game directly rather than providing counterclaim on either end. There's nothing the flag carrier can do to avoid being killed (aside from handing off, just to get recovered on by any half-aware invisible ninja) and there's nothing a competent recovery player has to do now.

    There are many better ways of fixing this issue imo. It's no secret that medic is the reason that stalemates exist, so that's a good starting point. Making medic restore not instant, and more of a over-time item replenish nerfs stalemates and provides counterclaim on both sides. Another option is adding or reworking a class to better suit what's needed for recovery in the current game. Something with high burst potential (the aforementioned wraith), major displacement (swapper), or some kind of ability disable (hg rougue). All of these options would have viable counterplay and could potentially shake up the meta, whereas health reduction is something that becomes super volatile with the amount of true damage already present in the game, especially if we're considering adding more.

    Another small thing, one unwritten rule listed is historically incorrect. The third one, stating that non-rotation maps cannot be played if agreed upon is mostly correct, but there have been exceptions made in the past, most notably for Slyworlds V prior to it being added and the original Airlock Rework. Whether or not this was brought up idk, but there's that fwiw.

    Note that I wasn't at the latest meeting due to prior commitments, so I'm putting my thoughts here to be transparent.
     
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  19. ArcticGalaxy

    ArcticGalaxy Leader and Representative of The Crusaders

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    1. Chemist has permanent resistance I as well as mana cost reduction for damage and health pots.
    you can literally throw 7 pots in a row and then throw the other 5 a few seconds later I suggest that the time in order for mana to restore increases, so chemist won't potspam every second.
     
  20. redslime

    redslime Developer

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    Yeah noticed that now, down to 5 pots in a row now. Let's see how that will go while the testing is still going
     
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