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Looking for Feedback - Engineer 2.0 and New Class

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Versions, Mar 17, 2019.

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  1. Versions

    Versions Ban and Appeals Manager // CTF Staff Member

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    Hello everyone, a lot has happened on CTF during the course of this week. Let's get into what will happen next.

    Engineer 2.0 (/engineer2)
    During the course of this week, the staff team have been exhaustively testing the reworked Engineer for any issues. After a few tweaks to the reworked class, we are ready to release Engineer 2.0 for testing to MVPs and ELITEs only. Testing will begin on Monday, 18th of March, and it will last for one week. Here are the specifics for Engineer 2.0:

    • Same armor as Engineer 1.0 (Iron Helmet & Boots with a Leather Chestplate and Leggings).
    • Engineer Pickaxe (Diamond) with the Knockback I enchantment - self-explanatory, used to destroy structures.
    • x4 Steak.
    • Grenade Launcher (Wooden Shovel) - shoots TNT if right clicked and explodes and damages any player(s) in the radius when TNT lands on ground.
    • Speed Pad (Stone Pressure Plate) - structure - if placed, it gives players speed II for a couple of seconds when stood on. Pad only has 5 uses until it will automatically despawn.
    • Healing Pillar (Cake) - structure - if placed, it gives regeneration III to anyone within 4 blocks of the pillar until they leave the radius.
    • Recall structures (Enchanted Book) - gives the engineer their structures back if right clicked.
    Please let us know any feedback on Engineer 2.0 after testing it in-game!

    Scout (/scout)
    Most of the community have seen that the staff team have been testing a new class. While we did not specify the details of the class, some players have seen that the class is able to swap with other players, while being able to deal additional damage to players, which was also stated in the last thread. Some community members have identifed what the new class will be called, and it is indeed going to be called Scout! During the course of this week, the staff team have been exhaustively testing Scout for any issues before releasing it to public testing. After tweaking some of the class, we are ready to release it to MVPs and ELITEs only for testing. Testing will begin on Monday, 18th of March, and it will last for one week. The following list are the specifics of Scout:

    • Protection I on Leather Helmet and Boots (Feather Boots - reduces fall damage by 50%).
    • Scout Sword (Stone Sword) with Sharpness II.
    • x2 Steak.
    • Swapper (Slimeball) - if thrown at an enemy, the Scout will switch positions with the enemy.
    • Death Tag (Name Tag) - if left or right clicked on an enemy, the tagged enemy will receive 1.5x damage.
    Please let us know any feedback on Scout after testing it in-game!

    Pyro Testing
    During the course of this week, we have tested the change from a Chainmail Chestplate to an Iron Chestplate to Pyro. The testing will conclude at midnight tonight and we thank everyone for testing the tweaked class. We will be making a decision over the next week or so in what to do in relation to this test. We have already setup a Discord poll in the CTF Community Discord and an in-game poll, asking whether or not the community liked the change from a Chainmail Chestplate to an Iron Chestplate. If you have tested the change in-game, please vote in both of the polls and let us know of any thoughts on the change!

    That's it for now!
    - CTF Staff Team :flag:
     
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    #1 Versions, Mar 17, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  2. CakeInASuit

    CakeInASuit Member

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    very awesome versions - will try the engineer rework and give u my feedback thx
    cake is best :cake:
     
  3. fatmog

    fatmog Active Member

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    who wants to buy me mvp
     
  4. ExtremeEvoboost

    ExtremeEvoboost CTF Media Man
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    Ah, so its one of those “I jump off a cliff and swap with you” classes. Nice.

    Also FINALLY the “Give me back my building” book is added. Cheers.


    Edit: Does the grenade launcher have a cooldown, and how much damage does it do?
     
    #4 ExtremeEvoboost, Mar 17, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  5. deegleedee

    deegleedee Active Member

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    Will engineer2 then be allowed in matches eventually?
     
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  6. Versions

    Versions Ban and Appeals Manager // CTF Staff Member

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    It does have a cooldown, yes, and find out by testing it yourself in-game :stuck_out_tongue:

    Quite possibly.
     
  7. Dragoarg

    Dragoarg Well-Known Member

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    Is that 1.5x from all inc or just the scout? Cuz that might be some gnarly instakill pyro back unless I'm wrong about the numbers
     
  8. RockyRL

    RockyRL Active Member

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    I think the tnt should deal not that much damage, because it is nearly insta-kill on ninja. Throw it in the flag room all the time and the ninja shouldnt be abled to survive that long
     
  9. j0nii_

    j0nii_ 6 Year CTFer | Asset Stealer

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    Ninja has no armour.
     
  10. RockyRL

    RockyRL Active Member

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    then give ninja armor?
     
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  11. Northernlreland

    Northernlreland Active Member

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    Surely people who give the most commitment to the server with activity should be able to test scout, over MVPs and ELITEs only? It would make sense, considering they have the most experience with the current server and how a class like scout could improve it.
     
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  12. Nakatago

    Nakatago Well-Known Member

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    I've played around with engi2 a little bit and would like to share my thoughts:
    Overall I love the utility of the class, however I think that the speed pad and the healing totem are a bit counter intuitive. What I mean by this is that the speed pad encourages fast, on the go gameplay, allowing you to move from one place to another quickly, whereas the healing totem encourages stationary gameplay. I also think that the class feels too "squishy" and needs an armour buff as well as a weapon buff.

    ARMOUR:
    To be viable as support, I think it would need to have some sort of armour buff, whether it be protection 2, or simply an iron chestplate.
    This is because right now, along with its weak damage output, it struggles to fight even the weakest classes.

    PICKAXE:
    Again, to be viable as support I think it would need to have a weapon buff; either sharpness 1 or sharpness 2. I do believe the knockback should remain, however, due to the support factor which could be knocking people away.

    GRENADE LAUNCHER:
    I think, right now, that should stay as it is.

    SPEED PAD:
    I think the speed pad should stay as it is, though providing speed for a second or two longer is an option in my opinion.

    HEALING TOTEM:
    To match the on the go gameplay the speed pad encourages, I think the healing totem should be changed to an aura item. What I mean by this is, whilst in the hotbar, if right-clicked, it would provide an aura of regen 3 around the engineer that activated it, for [x] amount of time. I think 3 or 4 seconds would be a reasonable length. This would have a cooldown of 10-15 seconds.
    Personally, I also love the idea of restoring steak, to give an alternative to medic (which imo would be nice to see). So if the engi2 player left-clicks somebody with the cake, one steak could be restored. This would have a cooldown of around 15-20 seconds to stop it being spammed.
     
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    #12 Nakatago, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  13. LeUniCow

    LeUniCow Member

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    Yes, or the totem only heals while in hand, rather than right clicking it, meaning it is vulnerable to attack while it is healing.
     
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  14. Versions

    Versions Ban and Appeals Manager // CTF Staff Member

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    What do you think the aura's radius would be? In terms of blocks.

    All classes.
     
  15. Nakatago

    Nakatago Well-Known Member

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    Probably decrease it by a block or two, so that'd be a radius of either 2 or 3.
     
  16. Keelb00

    Keelb00 Well-Known Member

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    I definitely agree with Dan that the cake and the speed pad contradict each other a little bit. The class doesn't seem incredibly weak, but it's quite awkward to play because the grenade launcher and pad encourage a lot more moving around, and engi is far less of a stationary threat than the original. I think if the class was more mobile it would be more fun to play and more competitively viable - perhaps the cake could still be placed as well as the aura?

    I've been playing a lot more scout and it's been really fun and seems pretty well balanced imo. I can definitely understand why the Death Tag is a once per life thing, but this does open up respawn abuse and medic camping, so I'd maybe consider a 20-ish second cooldown that doesn't refresh upon death or heal.

    All the mechanics have been pretty smooth from what I've seen, so huge plus there
     
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  17. ExtremeEvoboost

    ExtremeEvoboost CTF Media Man
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    Okay, so I’ve gone and played the new rework and class some, and compared it with some gameplay of their counterparts. (Normal engineer for engi2, and ninja for scout)

    Engi2 definitely feels more fair and balanced compared to normal engi. The grenade launcher is pretty fun to use once you learn how it arcs.
    (though the projectile is so big, it’ll bounce off of pretty much anything)
    I still have no idea how much damage it does, but it seems to kill things and be an decent ghost deterrant, so I’ll give it that. The speed thing is okay, useful for getting from point A to point B in a hurry, doesn’t feel like I’m helping the team much with it though. The regenerator is about as useful to me as the old one, in which “slap it down somewhere near flag carrier/flagroom” and forget about it is the primary strategy, though you can also just slap it down for half a second before recalling while running and get some heals out of that. And the engi pick feels so much weaker without that sharpness, especially up against normally light classes. I still think its a demoman
    TLDR: Its a solid 6.5/10, woulda preferred it stay more in its original roll, but the (((ninja mains))) will keep hating it, so its okay I guess.

    Onto Scout. I’ll be honest, I was fighting against it more than playing it, because I just cannot land snowballs for the life of me. It feels a lot like ninja when fighting against it. With its death tag on you it might as well have a ninja sword. Though it trades one of its speed tiers in for some snazzy boots and a hat. Also teleportation via throwing object.
    Please make this blockable. Getting teleported off of a cliff is my favorite passtime. Playing it, you feel like your made of glass, and everyone else is a sledgehammer.
    TLDR: Ninja 2 electric boogaloo, now with matching hat

    All in all, glad to see dev’s actually communicating and letting (some) players try out the classes.
     
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  18. StormNox

    StormNox Active Member

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    Engineer2 is a bit awkward and weird, but overall more enjoyable then original engineer. I remember using engineer2 [yes i have mvp now] and it's actually similar in terms of usefulness to the original engineer. Speed pad should have infinite uses [although it already does have infinite uses, as you can just place it down and then break it].
    A good strategy i used while i played engineer2 was simply placing the speed pad down and then stepping on it and then despawning it.
    Cake stops engineer2 from camping a single place and encourages movement [since it is possible to kill engineer2 while under cake's effects].
    Grenade launcher was like an manual turret with extra range that deals less damage so it worse then normal turret from original engineer. With original engineer, you could manually spam 100 arrows which dealt so much damage, but grenade launcher seems a bit underpowered.
    [this is contradictory to my original post, but now i can actually try the class].

    Scout is very underpowered. Can't deal much damage, swap does not do much and deathtag is just not good. I'd suggest improving the armor and giving the class more steak, because this class is like a ninja without a good sword and without invisibility powder.
     
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  19. obikenobi21

    obikenobi21 Delta Force Jedi

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    Engineer:
    I think the Engie rework is a ton of fun. Is it viable? I'm not too sure, it doesn't seem to offer much in any particular area. Its not really tanky, its supporting is decent, and damage output is also decent. I do have some suggestions and observations from playing.

    My biggest complaint would be structure restrictions. When the rework fully replaces the old engineer the structure restrictions should be removed or greatly reduced on all maps. There is no reason to stop engie from putting a speed pad or healing totem near a flag.

    I agree with a lot of the people above that Engie feels really squishy. However, I find that when you're around the healing totem that you are tankier, but it really only mitigates a hit or two. I don't think Engineer needs to be able to survive longer overall as it needs an armor buff to deal with burst damage while reducing steak so it doesn't become too tanky. From my experience playing I really haven't had much of a problem with getting one-shot by ninjas or anything, but it does become hard to deal with steaking and throwing out grenades when that squishy, in addition to plopping down whatever structures you want.

    I'm not sure how much damage my grenades are actually doing, but it seems that they aren't really inconveniencing anyone much. A typical fight is mostly me using them as soon as they're off cooldown and just kiting around with my pickaxe, which I guess is whats intended? It seems like it takes way too long to whittle down an enemy with grenades and axe hits, so I'd agree that maybe a slight weapons buff would be nice, either to grenades or pickaxe preferably grenades so landing them is more impactful.

    {
    Idea: Make every 3rd or so grenade do extra damage/light enemies on fire. This wouldn't hugely increase Engie's damage but perhaps he can setup more, and in long prolong fights landing this third grenade would increase his damage
    }

    I think the speed pad and healing totem are fine as they are. The rework is still very good at keeping an area under control with all its structures placed down, with less restrictions I think they'll be much more useful. I also think the recall structures book is a fantastic addition which really brings the class together.

    Scout:
    Scout is also a lot of fun, and there are a bunch of creative ways to use the swap mechanic. I'm not sure I like the overall direction taken with the class, as it seems like a ninja-lite with a swap mechanic. The swap mechanic pushes Scout in more of a hit-and-run type class, but the death mark seems to emphasize sticking to and bursting out a target which doesn't mesh at all with the swap. Since the swap is the main feature of the class, I think its abilities should augment that.

    So, I think the armor should be increased across the board, to perhaps all leather with some steak. It shouldn't be tanking a bunch of hits, but every class should not 2-shot it. In addition, I think adding things to encourage creative swapping would be great, for example Feather Falling so Scout can swap people off cliffs without instantly killing itself if it misses, Waterwalking to swap people into the water, etc...

    The death mark is a great mechanic, but I don't think it fits with Scout. Scout does too little damage without the mark and too much with the mark, so I think finding a nice middle ground and keeping it flat there would be good. To replace the death mark, I think an ability that helps Scout do something when it does land a swap would be good. Currently, it seems Scout swaps with someone and just runs around or tries to kill someone close to the person they swapped. It doesn't feel really good to just swap into a bunch of enemies and then just die.
     
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    #19 obikenobi21, Mar 20, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  20. ExtremeEvoboost

    ExtremeEvoboost CTF Media Man
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    Me and Larhh did some testing and found they do 2-4 hearts of true damage to players depending on the distance from the blast center
     
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