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Looking for Feedback—Finalizing Elf Tweaks

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by scapezar, May 13, 2019.

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What we're most unsure of for Elf—Check all that you'd like to see added!—(details in thread)

  1. 1. Give Elf a full set of Prot II leather armor (slight armor buff, slight armor nerf w/ flag).

    15 vote(s)
    83.3%
  2. 2. Slightly buff Elf's water element splash zone regen effect for now.

    15 vote(s)
    83.3%
  3. 3. Make Elf's shield toggleable (w/ faster mana depletion) useable while moving for brief intervals.

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  4. A./B. I actually don't agree with Sharp II and/or the reversion back to the old wind element.

    1 vote(s)
    5.6%
  5. I really don't mind / I don't read / Surprise me / I main Dwarf

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  6. I'll comment what I think below!... #BuffFashionista

    4 vote(s)
    22.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. scapezar

    scapezar aka Scape

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    What’s up CTF community!

    As mentioned in the Q&A stream, we’ve been working on solidifying Elf tweaks with you all. On top of this, we’re still looking for feedback on engineer and scout and will be working on larger class reworks with dwarf and necro after. So, definitely keep sharing any new ideas that could apply to either.


    Details to the poll questions below
    So with Elf, based on community input and strong support, here is what we plan on changing—
    • A. Buffing the Sharp I wood sword to Sharp II.
    • B. Reverting back to a more reliable and effective old wind element when right clicking/shooting the bow (as exemplified by @915).
      • This has shown to be more popular and likely better fit for Elf than to modify the vortex and vortex flag restrictions.
      • If you disagree, comment below!!

    Now here is what we have agreed on amongst the majority of the CTF staff team, have some community support, but want more of your feedback on—
    • 1. Currently Elf’s leather armor consists of: no helmet, Prot III chest, Prot II legs, Prot II boots … we propose to give Elf a full set of Prot II leather armor (helmet and chest included).
      • In general this will be a slight buff to its armor (a Prot II helmet and Prot II chest is more defense than just a Prot III chest); however, it will be a slight nerf after it steals the flag (when its helmet gets removed).
      • This isn't necessarily a complete nerf to elf capping, as the hardest part arguably, especially in the competitive scene, is reaching the flag with having taken as minimal damage as possible, which the armor buff with the addition of the helmet would directly help with.
      • Prot value for the helmet or chest may need to be adjusted/increased to Prot III to be slightly more consistently reliable & effective of a general armor buff––in testing and from other sources, Prot damage reduction shows slight random variance.
        • i.e. Prot III may sometimes reduce the same or nearly just as much damage as Prot II––of which the damage reduced is already almost negligible.
          • The difference between Prot III chest vs. Prot II helmet+Prot II chest sometimes amounted to just half a heart of additional reduced damage for the latter from a total of 5-6 hearts of received damage, while sometimes there was no difference in damage reduction.
    • 2. Buffing water element splash zone so that instead of giving Regen 2 and Resis I for 4 seconds, it’ll give Regen III for 8 sec and Resis I for 4 sec.
      • While this isn't the only way to buff it, we believe this is a good place to start. If you would prefer something a bit different, something in addition, or even a full rework, comment below!
    • 3. Toggleable elf shield (w/ much faster mana depletion for balance) capable of shielding and running for brief intervals of time from whatever mana is available (w/ a gradual, potentially slower automatic mana recharge as currently shown as XP in the XP bar).
      • Would you like seeing the toggling of the Elf shield to be activated by a separate item in the hotbar so it is clear that it's an ability (especially to help the noobies), or keep the activation similar to how it currently works with shift+right click to be the toggle?
    • Lastly, we want your opinion on the Pure Element — especially keeping in mind that the Vortex ability will be removed.
      • We feel the Pure Element is too ineffective...most especially at a distance.
      • What are your thoughts if a nerfed version of the old AoE Earth Element was combined into the Pure Element shot (temporarily slowing enemies and preventing soldier wall-climb)?
      • Or what would you like to see?


    We certainly want to get the tweaks implemented as soon as we can, but a larger, more uncertain change to the Pure Element shot or anything else can be talked about and implemented at a later date.

    Keep in mind nothing is always 100% set in stone. If we implement a change and people feel there still needs to be tweaks, complete reworks, or even reversion back to a previous state, we are open to that. So keep up with all the great questions, ideas, and feedback!


    Much love and many waffles,
    – CTF Staff Team
     
    • Like Like x 5
    #1 scapezar, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  2. ExtremeEvoboost

    ExtremeEvoboost CTF Media Man
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    1. Currently Elf’s leather armor consists of: no helmet, Prot III chest, Prot II legs, Prot II boots … we propose to give Elf a full set of Prot II leather armor (helmet and chest included).
    Sounds good, extra armor is always good for elf trying to move up.
    2. Buffing water element splash zone so that instead of giving Regen 2 and Resis I for 4 seconds, it’ll give Regen III for 8 sec and Resis I for 4 sec.
    Pls stop slapping regen III on classes, buff the resistance not the regen.
    3. Toggleable elf shield (w/ faster mana depletion for balance) capable of shielding and running for brief intervals of time from whatever mana is available (w/ a gradual automatic mana recharge as currently shown as XP in the XP bar).
    That's a no from me pal. With a good elf it would make all projectile classes worthless and combined with the regen III from earlier, make grabbing the flag against pyros even easier than it already is. Poor pyro.
    4. Lastly, we want your opinion on the Pure Element — especially keeping in mind that the Vortex ability will be removed.
    Sure, I don't really think its OP or UP right now, I've seen elves that hit every shot and their annoying, but its far and few in between.
     
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  3. scapezar

    scapezar aka Scape

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    For those who wouldn't like to see wind element reverted, definitely express your comerns here in case we should reconsider this.


    @ExtremeEvoboost increasing the regen level is like a nerfed version of resis - and we felt more resis in the game can be very OP especially if it lasted any longer especially for Elf or any heavy armored class while they block with the flag. But it certainly can be tested!

    For the shield, it should be emphasized that the mana would have to deplete much faster and potentially also a slower recharge rate, or else I do agree that it'd be too OP - we just want a slight buff derived from being a bit easier to use in more circumstances
     
    #3 scapezar, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  4. ExtremeEvoboost

    ExtremeEvoboost CTF Media Man
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    You only really need it for getting up to the flagpost and out of the flagroom to almost completely nullify a pyro defense, because after that elf has way better mobility. In another note, the downside to the shield was the immobility, which I don't think less shield time has a similar caliber effect to.

    What happened to "We want to get away from reworks that just add a potion effect", there was a really cool idea that buffed projectile classes while in the radius, was that just not viable or-? Also, this would just turn the water element into Engineer Regenerator but better in every way,

    Elf should be either a support class or a capping class, or a recovery class. It cannot be all three. catering to everyone with full ferocity is going to make the class too strong.

    Its water element would have a stronger effect than the dedicated support class, and most people use this for capturing.
     
  5. scapezar

    scapezar aka Scape

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    Fair point. Elf's mobility and armor may need to be looked at if we would want it having greater use of its shield (most especially where it should be used for support)...or maybe Elf cannot toggle it with the flag, just an idea.

    And tweaks (regarding the regen/resis for Elf's water splash zone) are different than reworks. We feel this would be an improvement than the splash zone regen's near uselessness at the moment. Regen is everywhere, but it doesn't mean it can't be tweaked/added—nor does it mean Engie's cake regen is perfect either. This doesn't disregard reworks however! Assuming you're regarding Cardona's idea for a water zone rework, the conversation for that can be made on that thread!—https://www.brawl.com/threads/74656/
     
    #5 scapezar, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  6. dQdx_dPdy

    dQdx_dPdy New Member

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    What do you think of the idea of having elf's shield toggle only apply when holding the sword (and immediately cancel if switched). This would mean that you can run with shield up, but if you want to use wind element you have to sacrifice the defensive benefits of using a shield. This is already partially in place, considering you currently have to hold sword to reflect anyway, and so all this does is make it so you can have normal mobility while reflecting.

    Edit: I believe the value in this is allowing elf to have increase overall mobility while using the shield, while also ensuring that elf's extremely powerful mobility in the form of wind element cannot be combined with the increased utility of the shield.
     
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  7. Dragoarg7

    Dragoarg7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not an elf expert so don't take my word for it, but pure element is a really good idea for an ability, on the wrong class. I'm pretty sure elf is supposed to be mobile but to fully cock back two shots and hit them both isn't easy, and you have to stand still for a bit, making it just generally a really hard ability, which is the point, but i think it's a waste on elf. I'm super pro earth element as *the* counter for soldier, so I'd love to see that back, even the old ability with a slight timer.

    I think the armor values are fine it's meant to be super squishy, but hey it's whatever.

    Water element has two uses the way it's set, the res helps a small bit when you duck into a flag room, as well as the anti fire, but tbh no elf is gonna sit in a flag room for a really long time, making the res short lived, and other classes could use it but it's more of a support ability. And the res only really helps when you don't have a ninja or pyro bearing down on you. Since it's water, it could be cool if it just negated fire, and slowed enemies a little bit, that'd be more helpful in those in flag room situations.

    I don't like the idea of a toggle. I don't like the idea of being mobile and blocking all projectiles. Sorry I had to edit to reinforce what Evoboost whatever said up there. This is a bad idea. Blocking projectiles is super strong, not just head shoot arrows, but fire that can tick you down, freeze spells to stop you, ninja pearling onto you, medic webs slowing you down, a lot of abilities you negate. The only reason this is balanced, is because you don't move while you're blocking. If you were able to move and block the mage freeze, or a ninja pearl, or block arrows and duck under places you'd be unstoppable. That would make elf too strong. With wind element you could get a couple of puffs off even if it's really short toggles, putting so much distance. Don't do this

    I don't play that often but I've literally only had one vortex be negatively impactful to me in a match setting, and idek if I've been hit w it in casual. The old one is better.

    But this is just what I think
     
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    #7 Dragoarg7, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  8. Cardona360

    Cardona360 Well-Known Member

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    Seeing the sword buff and old wind come back is absolutely fantastic, as both a starting point and overall buff for now :grinning:

    1. This is an interesting one, as elf is most certainly its weakest while getting to flag / defending, and its strongest with the flag. This seems like a good change because of the downfall with flag along with the minor amount of protection difference. Would have to be tested before immediately implemented.
    2. This is a really good buff for the time being, although should pure change in the future, I have a really great idea for a water element rework here: https://www.brawl.com/threads/74656/
    3. Nope; part of elf's skill cap is getting good with the shield and knowing when to use it, as of course it will stop you from moving. I feel this change would be too powerful for elf as well (coming into flagroom vs pyro, vs mage which is one of it's better counters, ninja eggs, etc.) so definitely keep old shield.

    Pure element as of rn has no good changes; my rework thread mentioned above tampers with it but for now leaving it alone to change other aspects of the class that need it more is optimal. Earth AoE + Pure is... an interesting concept, but pure element being a high damaging aspect of the class has always been very appealing and I feel compensating that for AoE is unnecessary, especially with old wind :sunglasses:


    Elf has the potential to go places in terms of reworking things like Pure Element, but these tweaks will be plenty sufficient for the time being (especially old wind) :thumbsup:
     
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  9. Im_Slingeh

    Im_Slingeh Member

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    I really like everything that has been suggested besides the toggleable shield. Going off of what Cardona said, learning the shield is a part of elf’s skill cap, therefore it should remain unchanged. However, you guys could add a tip in chat saying something like, “Block and crouch with your sword as elf to activate your Elven Shield!” To help new players know all the ins and outs of elf.
     
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  10. dQdx_dPdy

    dQdx_dPdy New Member

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    I see now from other comments that a moving shield is likely to be too powerful in the case of a toggle.
    But what about a single-use ability? Is it realistic to think we might get a shield we can activate that will be active on a moving elf that needs to be used in advance and cannot be used for an extended time period (20 seconds maybe)? This would remove the XP bar from the equation entirely, meaning that the elf can't always just reflect any time a projectile comes around, but the elf would also be able to retain the benefits of moving with a shield active.
    I'm not trying to deny that a moving shield is hard to balance, but I do want to explore the idea further without shutting it down entirely on the basis that it "can't" be balanced.
     
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  11. 915

    915 Member

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    Like many others, I'm okay with everything except the running with shield aspect. To be quite honest, if you have decent timing, the shield poses little mobility issue anyways - just use the shield for as short as possible. I also think that should be part of learning elf: balancing winding/shielding (you can also just sidestep and dodge too).

    Also hype for old wind :smile:
     
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  12. GalaThundR

    GalaThundR Mcpvp Veteran

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    what if the pure element's arrow weren't affected by gravity and go perfectly straight. it'd make it easier to use and be much more consistent.

    maybe decrease the drawback time for all the bows? i'm sure there's a way to code in skipping a drawback phase. increasing the dps of the class while keeping its bow gimmick but not being a mage clone with instant shots.

    i still think the water element should be used as a "cleanser" - removing bad effects from yourself/teammates and removing buffs from enemies. anything that requires a cooldown more than 10 seconds doesn't work for ctf imo.

    leave the shield alone it's the best part of the class rn. only thing i'd suggest is have a little pling sound play when you deflect something.

    wind element should be what it was with some buffs. direct shots should deal minor damage and push the player towards wherever the arrow was going. the power which the arrow was shot would affect the strength of the push. make it work on necro's mobs as well. make the arrow trail cloud particles.
    optional - switch between pushing and pulling.

    the armor currently is fine. it's a mid-ranged class, it should be squishy. leave it as is.
    sword imo is currently fine.

    stop trying to force the earth element with the pure element. it really doesn't work because of how difficult it is to use most of the time and it feels like a lazy bandaid. imo take away rooting from the pure element. either rework the earth element entirely or disregard it entirely.
     
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  13. Northernlreland

    Northernlreland Active Member

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    1. I like it
    2. Great, it's really needed
    3. Nope, I like the shield. Elf bug isnt fixed yet which is basically what this is. Was pretty OP.
    4. If vortex is removed then pure element is automatically nerfed. If pure stays, will need buffing. Never really seen the earth element as a counter to soldier anyway.. Considering the class will only be used on offense, stalling or trying to slow down soldiers wont help. As on offense you arn't trying to PvP the defence, esp with a squishy class such as elf.

    Sharp II sword excellent against ninja.
    915 wind idea great

    Busy atm, quick reply
     
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  14. Cardona360

    Cardona360 Well-Known Member

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    After reviewing a few things, Water Element might be better off dropping Resistance I with these changes. Might be a little too much with the significantly buffed Regeneration.
     
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  15. scapezar

    scapezar aka Scape

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    Ya definitely might be something that needs testing as with many of the ideas and suggestions – good thinking!
     
  16. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    togglable projectile shield literally turns Elf into Yasuo which would probably be the one thing that could make Elf even more annoying while still being useless

    Also this x1000
     
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