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Idea for a Necro Rework

Discussion in 'Ideas' started by TheDCSportsGirl, May 15, 2019.

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  1. TheDCSportsGirl

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    Following the change of engineer to be more interactive in its gameplay, I wanted to propose a rework for the necro class that similarly places more emphasis on PvP than has previously been the case.

    I want to give credit to @Lceman502 for helping me with this idea. I also want to mention that this idea has changed a lot over the course of the thought process involved. The only thing that I believed was key to the idea of a “necro” was the ability to summon, commune with, or get help from the dead. The idea behind a lot of this is that a necro should be able to create or sustain life by taking it from someone else, and that a necro’s source of power stems from the dead.

    For convenience as well as clarity, when referring to the proposal for the reworked necro, I will use the term Necro, capitalized and italicized. If it’s not too much to ask, I’d like comments to also use some way of differentiating between this specific idea and current necro, again, for the purpose of clarity.

    This rework is very much a work in progress, and if something like it is implemented, the specifics will likely change in order to ensure balance with other classes.

    Necro


    Equipment:
    Necro has a stone sword with Sharpness I. Upon getting a kill and going into Phantom Form, the name of the sword changes from “Necro Sword” to “Ethereal Blade” to indicate to a killed player what occurred, though this is admittedly unnecessary.
    Necro also has the Staff of Draining, a renamed and (for aesthetics only) enchanted bone.
    Necro has no steak. Its only source of self-healing is the Staff of Draining.
    Necro has the following armor: no helmet, a black leather tunic, black leather pants, and iron boots, all enchanted with Protection I. This is the area where I’m least confident. Please let me know if this level of armor is too low, too high, or if it could use any protection adjustments.


    Phantom Form:
    One of Necro’s main mechanics is what I refer to as “Phantom Form.” As far as flavor/lore goes, the Necro takes on an ethereal, ghostly form that is able to deal more damage with the help of ghostly spirits, while also sacrificing some of its own life force to receive the aid of the undead. The Necro is able to use the power of the undead from a kill it gets to attack through armor (dealing true damage) for a brief period of time (5 seconds). However, because the Necro’s life force is tied to the ethereal, the health of the Necro is temporarily reduced to 7 hearts for the duration of the effect.

    EDIT (for clarity): When I wrote this up, I had in mind the idea that this would occur the moment a Necro gets a finishing blow on anyone. However, I will concede that it may be better to have a single charge that is filled when getting a normal kill (outside of phantom form), similar to how pyro charges frenzy with hits. However, because Necro uses a sword (as opposed to an axe), right clicking already has the function of blocking, so a consumable would be required to use the ability.


    Staff of Draining:
    The other unique mechanic to Necro is the “Staff of Draining.” The Staff of Draining creates an area of effect of radius 3 around the Necro. Upon use (right click), the Staff of Draining has an instantaneous effect that gives the wither II status effect to any enemy players within the radius for 5 seconds. Whenever a player takes damage from the wither effect, the Necro restores the same amount of health (e.g. if two players are in the radius when Staff of Draining is used, they will lose a half heart every second, the Necro will restore a total of 1 heart / second for 5 seconds, or 5 hearts total). As mentioned earlier, the area of effect is one-time and the ability is used instantly (i.e. it does not linger, and affects everyone within the radius as soon as the ability is used). The Staff of Draining has a cooldown of 10 seconds.


    Design philosophy:

    The main goal of this rework is to increase the level of interactivity of necro while also allowing for some “necro”mantic flavor.
    I wanted to make Necro more tied into PvP than the current iteration. I believe that there is always room for PvP to be more or less important to a class, but I think it should always be relevant. Even for classes like archer and assassin, players are rewarded with being good at self-defense.
    However, unlike assassin and archer, current necro doesn’t just reduce the importance of PvP; it discourages its active use by encouraging the use of mobs, which essentially means players spend effort thinking about how to best use mobs to do damage or get kills without needing to do damage personally. While necro isn’t currently a problem in this regard (as it seems far too underpowered for anyone to complain about necro not needing skill), the current iteration does not encourage interactive, player to player engagement, which I believe is the opposite of fun.
    Please understand that a lot of this information is indefinite; numbers are given for the sake of understanding/clarity, and because the numbers chosen seemed to be in a ballpark of where they would be at a balanced level. Many of this is suspect to change.


    Thank you for reading!
     
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    #1 TheDCSportsGirl, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  2. StormNox

    StormNox Active Member

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    Are you an alt?
     
  3. TheDCSportsGirl

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    To be perfectly clear:
    Yes, but I’ve been playing on it a while. The reason it says I’m new to forums is because I only made the forums account itself very recently.
     
  4. StormNox

    StormNox Active Member

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    Understandable, however i have never seen you before in-game and it appears that both of us are active at similar times of the day.

    Now about your idea, it seems interesting and balanced. However, you may wish to put the armor and weapons description at the start of the thread.
     
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  5. scapezar

    scapezar Tzar of Scapes

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    Very cool concepts – very fitting for necro

    Maybe after it dies, it respawns like 0-3 seconds later in the same spot in ~phantom~ form #dannyphantom xD
     
  6. Foodcourt

    Foodcourt CTF Staff Member

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    Interesting ideas:

    I do think this level of armor is too low for this concept. Having no steak puts it at a disadvantage and its only source of healing is dependent of having enemy players around. I think a slight increase in armor or the addition of steak in some way would be beneficial.

    The phantom ability you described sounds interesting and I like it. As you said in your edit, I am in favor of making it mimic how pyro's frenzy works, and add a consumable to activate the ability (similar to Scout's death tag maybe). Definitely would like this class to have a sword instead of an axe solely to defend itself against assassins.

    Question: Is there a visual indication for when the Necro is in phantom form, or is the appearance the same regardless?

    I like this idea exactly how you described it, although in my experience (it may just be my texture pack) but when I have the wither status effect it is often very difficult for me to see how much health I have, maybe if there was a substitute like poison it would be easier, but overall great idea.

    +1
     
  7. TheDCSportsGirl

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    In hindsight, I definitely agree. In a world full of the burst damage that comes from ninja, scout, chemist, and pyro (not to mention TNT, lightning, and instakills), a single healing ability with a long cooldown doesn't work too well without more defensive abilities (like mage has). As far as I know (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), armor reduces damage taken by a set percent, and protection reduces the remaining set of health, meaning adding a level of protection will do something, but may not be as impactful as changing the armor before anything. A leather helmet with protection I doesn't add too much else to the armor of Necro, so maybe we can discuss changing the iron boots to diamond in addition to that, or adding an iron (or chainmail) helmet instead of leather?

    EDIT: What do you think of the idea that Necro heals maybe 2 hearts on kill? This has an interesting dynamic with phantom form, seeing as you can deal way more damage than normal, but you have reduced health, so it doesn't do much good against burst as it is. It isn't especially original, seeing as assassin has the same ability but with an extra healf heart, but it might work out well. It also isn't nearly as good as a steak passively, but I don't know if having the staff and a passive healing ability that heals 4 is a great idea.
    Brilliant idea! Since the armor is already enchanted, the best I can come up with is changing the color of the armor upon use, so white or a lighter gray might work. Or we could do bright green like #dannyphantom. @scapezar
    One reason I picked wither was because wither kills. In one aspect, it makes it so that Necro can get kills with the staff, as opposed to always needing to get the last hit. On the other hand, Necro can't possibly heal from dead targets, so getting a kill on a low target means that a player will get less healing, providing some depth of play. The other (and admittedly more superficial) reason for this is wither fits Necro's flavor more.
    In hindsight, though, I realize that getting a single hit isn't a big deal, and poison doesn't reduce players' health below a half heart as it is, so Necro's healing wouldn't really be impacted too much. It's probably for the best to use poison instead.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    I like it! I'm thinking, though, since the original idea was that you'd lose 3 hearts at the top of your total health, maybe with this "resurrect" effect, health is capped at 5 hearts instead. Instantly gaining 7 might be too powerful if armor is changed like @Foodcourt suggested. Either that or we keep it at 7 and just don't change armor, allowing Necro's survivability to hinge more on the side of having a second temporary health pool.

    Thank you to you too!

    Note that I'm not going to frequently update or edit the thread with community ideas. I'd rather wait for more to come in and just create a new thread with all the feedback and input. As far as the edit I put in the original post, that was just an alternative design to the original idea I'd come up with. I will take any and all feedback and use it to polish and refine this idea!

    Thanks again!
     
  8. scapezar

    scapezar Tzar of Scapes

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    rather than an armor and color change, tbh i'd think a phantom form could show just like a translucent invis ninja on your own team, but perhaps additional particles and/or a floating effect could help differentiate the two
    (or maybe there could be a combination of the translucent player body but with normal armor)
     
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  9. Foodcourt

    Foodcourt CTF Staff Member

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    With reduced health I think another method of healing apart from the staff is a good idea, and this is probably the best way to do it. It would provide a reward for killing low armor, high damage output classes (ninja, scout) that Necro would be particularly susceptible to, given its low amount of armor and reduced health. I am in favor of this edit.
     
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  10. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    ngl I love the phantom form idea. It's super cool and makes total sense as far as a Necro is concerned

    just some thoughts from reading the thread:

    all of Necro's abilities are melee or short ranged. You have true damage, regeneration (of a sort), and an AoE wither so this class seems intended to jump into combat and do a bunch of damage (like a bruiser). Yet it has lowish armor (same as medic if I'm thinking about it correctly), mediocre damage, no mobility, and it's only sustain comes from a very short ranged AoE on a longer cooldown than Mage's heal spell. And when you do get the bonus damage your health is reduced by 3 full hearts

    I feel like Necro's squishiness and lack of sustain (same thing tbh) are the biggest issues if your intent is to turn it into a quasi-bruiser. as foodcourt said you could deal with both problems by adding another item for sustain, or something along those lines. It'd have to be a lot more sustain though. Either that or you could 1) buff Necro's armor (i.e. give it a helmet), 2) increase the damage which would improve the healing from the AoE wither, 3) buff the AoE, or 4) do some combination of these/add an additional healing item.

    Another thought I had was giving this Necro a way to shield himself. Like you could have an item that shields him for a certain % of his max health (say 20% or 2 full hearts) which he could trigger in combat and possibly scaling with his health (he gets a bigger shield if at much lower health) for example. I wouldn't make any of his abilities dependent on allies, though, since that promotes camping - especially if those abilities give him a lot more power

    all of this is ignoring whatever you plan to do with the 'ghostly spirits' though. Maybe Necro could heal a certain amount of health if one of his spirits is killed?

    very cool overall
     
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  11. TheDCSportsGirl

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    The simplest thing to do is to add steak. Everything else seems to have at least some other side effect, the greatest of which is buffing the AoE healing itself. Because the AoE healing is meant to be perfectly in line with the damage enemies take, increasing the level to wither III (for instance) will exponentially increase the rate of healing per enemy inside the radius. The lower end of the side effects is the helmet, which would basically mean losing armor when grabbing the flag, but that probably won't end up being your main goal anyway. In the middle are two interesting ideas: adding a second healing item, and increasing the AoE's radius. I'm going to touch on the radius first. I think that this might end up being a much better buff, just because overall it makes it easier for Necro to heal consistently, as well as to consistently drain multiple players. At the same time, though, the larger the radius is, the more room there is for the Necro to accidentally hit an invisible ninja, a hiding assassin, etc., which feels awful for people who were trying to hide after getting hit by the ability. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does bring a certain lack of control to the class's balance. Finally (and I don't know if you saw this), but I talked to Foodcourt about gaining health on kills like assassin does. This would bring in a second way for Necro to heal itself. The (tentative) number is 2 hearts a kill, to make it about half a steak's worth, but that can be easily improved to 3 without too many repercussions. Whether or not 4 would be balanced is questionable. In phantom form, healing from a kill is very easy, but outside of phantom form, even 4 hearts a kill is comparable to only ever using a single steak when you get a kill. On the other hand, 5 seems excessive. That being said, a very simple solution is to give Necro diamond boots and an iron helmet, resulting in 10 (of 20 total) points of armor, in addition to protection.
    Honestly, I was more referring to that in terms of flavor more than anything :sweat_smile: but you've given me an interesting idea:
    What do you think about gaining levels per kill, similar to the idea of a consumable phantom form, but instead of just the one, you have two distinct consumables to use? One gives you phantom form and all its upsides and downsides. The other gives you a maximum of 5 hearts of healing, and if there is excess, a maximum of 3 absorption hearts can be added to the top of the health bar (e.g., if you're at 6, you'll restore 4 and gain 1 absorption heart; if you're at 8, you'll restore 2 and gain 3; at 10 and you'll gain 3).
     
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  12. Admiral_Munson

    Admiral_Munson Dank Memer

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    holy sh*t paragraphs

    ya ofc I wasn't sure if like you actually wanted Necro to be entirely reliant on abilities or whatever

    Yeah so I looked up the values for wither damage. Apparently wither 2, what you've got, deals 1/2 heart true damage per second. Over 5 seconds that's 2 1/2 full hearts true damage dealt and healed by Necro to a single target and say 7 1/2 to three. And even then that's still way slower regen than Mage, which is actually pretty poor since Necro is melee and can't kite like Mage (and is liable to soak a lot more damage due to being melee).

    Wither 3 would actually be pretty good since it'd do 5 hearts true damage and heal for the same amount (it's not an exponential increase it's just doubled from wither 1-2, 2-3 etc). That would make this a much more powerful ability, both for dealing damage and for sustain in fights. How reasonable that is isn't easy to determine on paper. Would be cool if that could be tested though

    Yeah like if you had an iron helmet then the armor would probably be fine (including the bonus from protection I). Either that or buffing some of the other armor, which I think you mention below, which is good too. That also makes Necro a little less reliant on in-combat heals (outside of steak) which would actually take a good amount of skill to consistently pull off

    Depends on what you'd increase the radius to. If you're catching out Ninja's within a 4 block AoE or whatever (especially if they're not targetting you) then they're probably not very good Ninjas.

    I feel like if you're going to do that then you need to give Necro more damage. Right now it's weaker than Heavy in terms of its ability to kill people and arguably weaker than Medic due to its mediocre armor and way lower sustain. If you can burst people down, which you can sort-of do in phantom form (but not really) without dying instantly, or doing a lot of dps over an extended period of time (which would require Necro to be tankier).

    I feel like that should be integrated in the phantom form or just with Necro's kit in general rather than being its own separate form. Like if you're trying to do damage and tank sh*t it's really annoying to have to switch forms, losing extra damage but gaining tankiness. That is, if you can gain a tankiness buff while still dealing a lot of damage then that makes your presence a lot more impactful.

    That said, a lot of this is up in the air because some of the issues w/this could be resolved depending on what you're planning to do with Necro's minions.
     
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