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Idea Archer Rework Proposal

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Mnkynoodles, Jun 24, 2019.

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What do you think about Archer nerf/rework?

  1. Yes

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. No

    6 vote(s)
    75.0%
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  1. Mnkynoodles

    Mnkynoodles ur mother

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    So many regulars agree that archer is one of the most broken class. The ability to potentially get 128 kills without a medic is very dangerous and it's basically over if you have 2 or more archers shooting at you.
    Here are some proposal's for an archer rework that would result in a nerf:

    -Remove punch 1
    - When you don't full charge up your bow to shoot a shot, you will not be allowed to shoot an arrow (Prevents bowspam)
    - 30 blocks currently with punch 1 is really strong as you can just bow spam them to 30 blocks and instakill them. So to deal with this, you either put a power 2 or 3 on the bow, or just do it by distance for damage (up to instakill) say 30 blocks to do 5 hearts of true dmg, 40 for 6.5 or 7, etc.

    Theres also a really weird interaction with archer and current chem. If an arrow hits a chem it will do multiplied dmg (1.5 or 2x more i think) as well as give slowness 1 for 2 seconds which is very frustrating to deal with. To compensate and remove that, chem should lose some damage and health pots since chem is currently very strong.

    What do you think? Any constructive criticism is allowed, you have your own viewpoint. Keep it respectful please!
     
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  2. GoodJobBud

    GoodJobBud Member

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    "Theres also a really weird interaction with archer and current chem. If an arrow hits a chem it will do multiplied dmg (1.5 or 2x more i think) as well as give slowness 1 for 2 seconds which is very frustrating to deal with. To compensate and remove that, chem should lose some damage and health pots since chem is currently very strong."

    As someone who typically farms with chem, I can confirm this is atrociously annoying. Archer can literally 2 shot chems with full charges, plus it makes it impossible to weave the bowspam, which is a total waste of a class with native speed. Your headshot change is also a very good idea, one that i've brought up myself a few times. Being able to oneshot literally anything from 30 blocks is simply overpowered; brawl.com/players/Any Archer Main and their kdr will be surprisingly high.
     
  3. BrandinoB

    BrandinoB Well-Known Member

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    Aight first of all, no one in the entire world is going to get 128 kills on archer without a medic, let alone it be a killstreak. You'd be lucky to get 40 kills in a single game nowadays, with a medic. There's probably only about 2 or 3 good archers left on this server that actively play the game, so the rest is simply just the amount of them, which I give the point that any class in large amounts will be annoying. But I do believe archer could use some changes, so I'll humor you.

    Remove Punch I:
    I agree. I've stated multiple times that I think Punch I should be removed in favor of Knockback I-II on the sword, and possibly add Power I-II for shots within 30 blocks.

    Not allowed to shoot an arrow unless fully charged:
    Sure. Will decrease the spam from the noobs, but any archer who's actually worth anything will almost always fully charge their shots.

    3rd Point:
    Not sure my guy. Taking away archer's ability to instakill would be pretty detrimental to the class. It's pretty rare to get 2 consecutive shots on anyone from long range (ask any elf player) and if you think that there's going to be some form of teamwork involved you're severely mistaken. Even in official team play, teamwork is often chaotic and mediocre at best. You can't simply take away it's ability to headshot because archer is not built like the rest of the classes. Archer avoids PVP. It's meant to be OP from long range. Take away soldier's ability to wall climb and it's just a ****tier heavy. Take away Pyro's fire **** and it's useless. Take away dwarf and you get an actual fun gamemode. Wait, what?

    Anyway. The way to go about changing archer is to make it more counterable. You can already counter it by taking different routes, targeting the archer in close range, or simply. . . not being an absolute ****ing bot and moving in a straight line. That means dodge. Yea yea, I know, "dodging isn't a counter waaaahh!!" but until we get another long range class that can give archer a run for it's money, you'll have to actually pay attention to where you're going. To effectively change it without making the class useless, nerf it's cqc ability. Less armor/sword, no punch, etc., but maybe give it speed or something to give it some more survivability rather than kill potential from close range. Perhaps in ranges less than 30 blocks, the arrows deal 0 knockback. Stuff like that. Hell, maybe you can even put some weird ****in cosmetic on the arrows to make them more visible.

    Archer is also pretty map dependent tbh. The only insanely good archer maps are like Blackout and Valley of Ruin. Maps like Beaver Creek is really only "good" because of all the idiots just spamming each other's spawns. The rest is just spam down certain areas. Seriously. Try taking different routes. Or if you're just farming kills at midfield. . . get the **** over it and play the objective.

    This is actually funny to me lol not only do you kill***** in capture the flag, but you kill***** with one of the most broken classes in the current meta and then have the balls to call one of the only counters to it annoying LMAO yea no my guy, that ****'s not going anywhere. If a ninja and a heavy have to be buffed by their own chemist to have a just a chance at killing you, no way is that counter going away.

    End rant.
     
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  4. Mnkynoodles

    Mnkynoodles ur mother

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    Take it to DMs if you want to yell at him
     
  5. BrandinoB

    BrandinoB Well-Known Member

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    Please do not mini-mod :rolling_eyes::rolling_eyes::rolling_eyes::rolling_eyes: cussing is my natural state.
     
  6. GoodJobBud

    GoodJobBud Member

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    A rant indeed, but the toxicity could probably go down a level or two. If you have speed, you should be able to weave arrows or any projectiles easier than the latter. My point is that the current debuff chems get from archers is harsh to the point where it's actually one of the weakest kits against it, unless you literally drop on top of them with poison (keep in mind i'm talking about decent archers). Chemist is really only overpowered in a flat landscape 1v1 where the speed advantage allows us to combo and pot easiest; which just so happens to be an Archer's dreamland as well. As an archer main i'm sure you're ignoring everything I say, but hopefully people with a more civil attitude towards the subject can take something useful from this.
     
  7. BrandinoB

    BrandinoB Well-Known Member

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    Don't take it personally, toxicity is just part of my natural charm <3 Anyway.

    I agree that pre-patch chemist the archer counter was harsh and pretty unnecessary to that degree. But now? It's different. Your argument about flat ground is honestly pretty pointless. Flat ground is best for any class because it's best for pvp in general. Honestly, I would argue that it's actually better for chemists to have high ground so you can use damage potions to start a combo and use fall damage to help you out, but I guess that's just me. But I also suppose you're only thinking about your own situation and not what everyone else is doing. This is capture the flag. Not kitpvp. We (usually) balance things based upon how well it affects a flag being captured, being it on offense or defense. Chemist is arguably the best solo capping class in the game, which also makes it one of the best capping classes in a competitive game. Chemist is also very formidable on the defensive side, and can do a bit of recovery as well. Again, this was pre-buff. Also, if you knew anything about archer, you'd know that a nice high ground overview is an archer's dreamland. Not flat ground.

    The thing that makes chemist op right now is its health pool in combination with the other potions. It used to be that chemist was a good class but good be focused down by heavies and ninjas pretty easily. Now, chemist just simply doesn't die. It takes a ninja what, 4 hits to kill it? That's pretty crazy, honestly. To be honest, I thought chemist was fairly balanced before. Personally, I argued to change the mana a bit (cooldown was slightly bugged) and have health pots not require mana. The mobility it had along with it's utility was good enough to justify being a little more squishy towards good ninjas and heavies. But now, not much anything can really focus it down. So there you go.

    Also, your point about me being an archer main is ridiculous. Am I an archer main? Sure. It's my most played class, it's what I'm most known for. But it also accounts for less than 25% of my overall gameplay. I've played both ninja and chemist for almost the same amount of time as I've played archer and I have played all the other classes enough to know what they're like and how to play them at a fairly high level. So I'd like to think my understanding of the game is pretty good. Honestly though, I'm not even denying that archer needs a change. I simply think that a change such as this would make it one of the most useless classes in ctf, second to only necro. Again, Imagine if soldier's wallclimb was taken away? Chemists' damage or poison pots? Pyro's instakill? Oh wait. Pyro's bow and arrows? Would it still be usable? Sure. Useful? No. The only reason pyro was able to have it's instakill taken away was because it's an actual pvp class. This is different, and should be handled differently. The chemist debuff can get nerfed when it's balanced again. Idc.
     
  8. GoodJobBud

    GoodJobBud Member

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    If you play it the most and it's what people know you by, it's probably your main... just my opinion. Chemist dies in 3 hits from ninja and 4 from heavy, which is pretty high considering the health pool chemist actually has. Buffed chem or soldier deals 1 or 1.5 to heavy randomly because the damage is a decimal, and it has 3 steak... does that sound balanced? If you're fighting someone equally as good as you (hit for hit) you have to use over half your inventory to kill it in an open area. It's practically a free kill if they can keep you in a corner. Ninja is very easy to counter, i'll agree, but that's because it's literally naked. 3 hits or damage pot + 2 hits and they go down. Unless they use all their eggs they're food for most Chemists.

    Using examples of other classes without their special items/abilities is pointless when you're talking about the only oneshot mechanic on the server at the moment. Frenzy only does 8 hearts now because back in 2014 you could oneshot anyone on fire according to a friend of mine. Chem needs it damage pots to help put out enough damage to compromise for its low health pool. Archer does not need a oneshot to be useful, and a free class certainly shouldn't be a hard counter to a class that you yourself said was the best solo capping class, etc. Just because I come into contact with archers more often than someone who's trying to cap doesn't mean it isn't an issue. I guarantee if you ask all the chemist mains you can find about this, they'll agree.
     
  9. BrandinoB

    BrandinoB Well-Known Member

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    And that makes my opinion invalid? Because I've just barely played one of the classes the most? Here's a thought, bud, and I want you to think real hard about this. What if I hadn't played archer the most, but it was the class I was most known for/best at? Would I be an archer main then? Cause literally my ninja and chemist playtime is right ****in behind archer lmao and on top of that, wouldn't that mean that I could possibly know what's best/better for the class? I mean having played the game for about 7 years and all? Lmao I mean honestly, maybe you're just mad that every once in a while someone stops you from killwhoring all the noobs

    Yes. It does sound balanced to me. Heavy is literally the most balanced class in the game. It has no mobility, no special damage or power, it's just . . .heavy. Chemist can literally run circles around the heavy, but the heavy can, or rather used to be able to, outplay the chemist by hitting it into a corner of some kind. Now, you can get a chemist into a corner all you'd like and he'll still survive.

    I'm using other examples of other classes without their special items because that's what makes them special. Without the headshot, archer is just a weaker elf. Ever thought about that? If you did the same thing that they did with pyro and do it to archer, it's literally elf's pure element. Even with pyro, Pyro is often still considered very weak. Without frenzy, it would be even weaker, borderline useless, and the capping meta would be all over the place. Lemme ask you this. . . how many times have you died to pure element? Cause I've died to it maybe 5 times in my entire ctf career. Of course there's not many elves, but again. . . maybe that's because the class is generally useless. . . take away a class's special ability and it's no longer special. lmao being free or not free has nothing to do with it. And you're right. Without damage pots, chemist becomes incredibly squishy and easy to take out. Without headshot, archer is just a weaker version of elf with absolutely 0 mobility. This ain't pay to win my guy. Free classes are some of the most op in the game if you play them right. Same as premium. Find a way to outplay until they find a non-retarded change it. And yes, you can 100% outplay archer. Maybe not all the spam ****, but hey.
     
  10. GoodJobBud

    GoodJobBud Member

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    First off, let me cite a source for you so you can rethink what you just said: brawl.com/players/VN2OO4

    1) Your opinion is as valid as mine, we disagree so i'm countering your argument
    2) I literally just pointed out why Chemist will flop if a Heavy gets them into a corner. Heavy is far tankier and will steal healing as they crit the Chemist out.
    3) I didn't say to remove archer's usefulness, I said to change it. That's what they did with Pyro, so I believe they can and should do it with Archer.
    4) I'm not sure what time period you're referring to, but 51k Archer kills vs 16k Chemist Kills and 19k Ninja kills isn't exactly close. Playtime doesn't mean anything if you aren't using the class.
     
  11. auromelt

    auromelt CTF Mod ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ // TF Member

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    Hello @Bible_Man_ I totally don't know who you are :wink: I think removing punch 1 would be a bad idea, after all it does help separate the archer from the people that are trying to kill it. But it is annoying with bowspam which brings me to your second suggestion: removing bowspam! First of all, yes. Please remove bowspam. 30 blocks is actually pretty far D: I think that should stay as it is. And if bowspamming were removed, you couldn't effectively bowspam them to 30 blocks as u have mentioned. So yes, please remove bowspam. I think that removing bowspam will encourage archers to position more strategically, in places where they cannot be ambushed or railed on by people.

    Also to your point about the weird interaction, it's actually intended to be that way. Archer is supposed to counter chemist!!!!!! It just does more damage to chemist. D: I feel this should stay, with chem's power spike after resistance was added, not much can contest with a chemist, and being a ranged class and not needing to go close to chemist, I feel it is the perfect counter for chemist.

    And no, don't remove instakill. It's hard enough to land a shot on someone from 30 blocks away, much less land shots from far away reliably. Archer doesn't really have any useful damage against classes without its instakill, the damage can be healed up and basically negated. Also archer currently helps combat stablemates, so that's pretty good. I know where you're coming from, because archer can be a pain in casual, but in most circumstances, it is balanced and does not need any tweaking other than possibly removing bowspam. Thanks for reading my feedback. If I don't make sense, then I apologise for not saying anything useful.

    Other than that, I know u get kinda salty sometimes @BrandinoB but chill out bud. You 2 @GoodJobBud. If brandino gets angery enough he might just target u ples take it off the thread at least ;u; this is a ctf ideas section, not an argument section so pls be considerate :frowning: don't hate me ;(
     
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  12. 1379ryan

    1379ryan Member

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  13. BrandinoB

    BrandinoB Well-Known Member

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    1) not gonna address it, it's fine
    2) Yea not true. Literally tested this out the other day. Was literally railing a chemist in a corner the other day as heavy. He still survived.
    3) Alright well archer is pretty much useless without headshot, so :smile: sucks
    4) ????????????? In what universe does kill amount equal how much you main it? LOL are you mental?? "Playtime doesn't mean anything if you aren't using the class" . . . my guy like is this even a real statement? Are you trolling? Dude just because not everyone kill*****s like you doesn't mean they aren't playing the classes. I always play objectively. However, if I'm outside shooting the offense, I will likely get more kills than being inside fighting them as chemist and ninja. Look at my recovs, bro. You gotta be trolling lmao there's no way you actually think that xDD

    @auromelt I apologize if my tactical cussing has made you think I'm salty.
     
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  14. Cardonation

    Cardonation CTF JMOD | CMS Leader

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    As stated previously, removing Punch I in favor of something like Knockback on the sword or Power I on the bow would be optimal imo.

    Bowspam honestly isn't a huge problem, plus different levels of charge are used by archers to arc their arrows more, so this change feels unnecessary.

    Headshot distance and mechanics would need an overall rework, but this rework specifically makes the class very underpowered and redundant. For now, the headshot mechanic is important and shouldn't be removed under these conditions.

    The archer and chemist interactions are a bit strange but fine as is, giving and archer a little more wiggle room against an otherwise very difficult class to deal with (right now chemist can destroy just about anything with the new updates).
     
  15. auromelt

    auromelt CTF Mod ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ // TF Member

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  16. EmperorTrump45

    EmperorTrump45 Dank Memer

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    lul my man brandi boutta invent some new insults to dunk on the minekiddies :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  17. Epislen

    Epislen Member

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    just dodge lol
     
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  18. Mnkynoodles

    Mnkynoodles ur mother

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    just dodge it 4head
     
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