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Peppe's Necro Rework

Discussion in 'Ideas' started by _Peppe, Aug 8, 2019.

?

What are your thoughts on this proposal?

  1. Positive: Not bad! This is a pretty neat rework!

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Generally Positive: There are some things that need tweaking, but it’s pretty good.

    3 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Indifferent

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Generally Negative: Some aspects of this rework are interesting, but it’s quite poor otherwise.

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  5. Negative: This is atrocious.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. _Peppe

    _Peppe Legal Eagle

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2016
    Messages:
    7
    Ratings:
    +9
    I. Foreword:

    Necro has found itself in a strange situation for quite a while now. It’s bulky; its only novelty ability is broken; it is regarded as worthless in both casual and competitive play; and it’s been the subject of many proposed reworks, tweaks, and fixes. Although the topic has been done to death at this point, as I’ve counted more than a dozen different threads similar to this one throughout the forums, I figure there isn’t any harm in throwing my hat in the ring.

    II. A Commentary on the Current State of Necro and Existing Rework Proposals:

    [Note]: Feel free to skip this section. It merely explains my assessment of Necro and my thoughts on certain themes of various reworks that I have read. It is not necessary to understand my rework as a whole, but may help in understanding why I made the choices I have.

    As it stands now, I believe that Necro’s only evident strength is its bulk. Necro’s resilience is surpassed only by Heavy, Dwarf, and Soldier in terms of armor value, and it is roughly equal to Chemist after its recent buffs. Furthermore, Necro boasts five steaks, possibly providing more in terms of endurance than Soldier. Such sustainability has become increasingly uncommon, as soft classes, such as Ninja, Assassin, Elf, and Scout, are rather prevalent as of late. I believe it would be expedient for a more survivable class to become viable in light of this large number of less-survivable classes. Thus, this bulkiness is a trait I hope Necro will retain in the future.

    Necro has always been unique because of its ability to spawn monsters. The intention is for Necro to, in a sense, snowball as the game progresses. As the Necro and its minions gather more kills, the Necro can strengthen said minions and summon stronger monsters. Unfortunately, the mob A.I. no longer works. While I am not an expert in coding, I assume that if the current bugs with the A.I. were fixable, it would have been done by now. Mobs are simply useless and will continue to be that way. As such, I hope to steer Necro away from using monsters in the future. However, the idea behind Necro benefiting from kills and killstreaks is an aspect I believe to be indispensable, and, thus, will use it in my rework.

    Necro uses a placed structure in conjunction with its minions. Formerly, it was a Monster Spawner and, currently, it is the Mob Beacon. I’ve always mentally categorized Engineer and Necro together as being the “structure classes” in some sense, and I intend on keeping Necro’s use of structures, albeit unrelated to any minions which, to reiterate, I hope to remove.

    As previously stated, more than a dozen Necro reworks are floating around the forums, many of which are very in-depth and creative. Many of them, however, seem to covet Necro’s monster-spawning, which I deem unideal for the reasons set forth above. Others champion the idea of Necro being able to switch between various forms with different abilities based on the monster that form represents, whether it be Zombies, Blazes, Spiders, and so forth. I am opposed to form-switching for two main reasons. First and foremost, Necro would become a jack of all trades and a master of none. Being able to use a smorgasbord of different abilities seems impressive, but that would turn Necro into what is essentially underwhelming versions of other classes. In other words, what could a Zombie-form Necro do that a Heavy couldn’t do better? Or a Blaze-form Necro when compared to Pyro? My second reason is that any rework shouldn’t be excessively complicated. If Necro had three or four forms, each with unique traits and abilities, the average casual player who didn’t read the update notes would have a difficult time understanding everything the class had to offer. Therefore, for the sake of practicality and accessibility, I will be avoiding implementing forms and transformations into my rework.

    It is also worth noting that I don’t have a very good grasp of what can be feasibly coded. As such, I will do my best to ensure that my proposal isn’t too outrageous in terms of abilities. This builds off of my previous point of making a Necro rework relatively simple, for both the players and to save the developers a headache.

    Thus, based on the above points, here are my intentions for my Necro rework:

    • Retain Necro’s bulk: Squishy classes are increasingly common. A tankier class would be a nice change of pace.

    • Get rid of mobs: Mobs don’t work. If they were fixable, they would have been fixed by now. Remove them.

    • Retain killstreak benefits: I think this aspect of Necro is its most unique and interesting trait. It is imperative that it has a place in my rework.

    • Retain structures: Utilize structures to some degree as to keep a more traditional feel for Necro.

    • Keep it simple: I don’t see the need to over-engineer a rework. A rework should be simple enough so that a casual player trying Necro out on Free-Play Friday will have a considerable understanding of how the class works by the end of a game.

    III. Proposition for a Possible Necro Rework:

    Understanding that Necro is nigh-useless in its current state, the class is essentially a clean slate that can be urged into any direction or role. Because of this, my rework places Necro into the role of a tough and flexible support class ideal for offense and midfield, but also effective on defense. Necro wouldn’t be the offensive spearhead, but rather aid its team by weakening the enemy whilst in turn strengthening its teammates. However, that’s not to say Necro wouldn’t be capable of holding its own in a fight, as its bulk should give it a strong, palpable presence in-game. On that note, here is how I envision my Necro rework:


    Necro will use the same armor as it does currently. This way, Necro keeps its bulk along with its signature appearance.

    [​IMG]

    Necro would also retain its five pieces of steak, also for the sake of survivability.

    [​IMG]

    As a Necro, one’s primary modus operandi is to generate a killstreak in order to augment one’s own abilities. This has been the case with Necro in the past and will be the case in this rework. Currently, Necro is given both a Diamond Pickaxe enchanted with Sharpness I and a Gold Sword. I, personally, have always found it far more effective and satisfying to use the Pickaxe over the Sword. However, that leaves Necro susceptible to Assassin, and I certainly don’t have the reflexes nor ping to switch to the Sword in time. As such, Necro will have an Iron Sword. I see this as a way to give it comparable damage output to its current version (6.25 attack damage with its Diamond Pickaxe as opposed to 6.00 with an Iron Sword) while also enabling it to effectively deal with Assassin and thus retain its killstreak a bit easier. In light of Death Tags, headshots, and true damage, I don’t consider this too excessive.

    Necro’s special abilities are obviously the most vital part of any rework. As I’ve reiterated many times now, getting kills and a killstreak are what make Necro flourish. I have also stated that I see Necro and Engineer as two sides of the same coin. Because of this, I want to make Necro somewhat akin to Engineer in regards to the use of structures and an aura-based ability.

    Ability 1: Tome of Decay

    Necro’s first ability, taking the form of an Enchanted Book, is an aura ability that acts as a reverse of Engineer’s Healing Aura. The Tome of Decay (as I have named it for the sake of arcane whimsy) applies negative status effects to enemies in a four-block radius for four seconds, with a cooldown of somewhere between fifteen and twenty seconds. These effects get stronger based on the Necro’s current killstreak. See below:

    • 0-1 Killstreak: Wither I
    • 2 Killstreak: Wither I and Weakness I
    • 3 Killstreak: Wither II and Weakness I
    • 4 Killstreak: Wither II and Weakness II
    • 5+ Killstreak: Wither III and Weakness II

    At its weakest, this effect is little more than an inconvenience, but scales to have the potential to absolutely cripple a team’s defense. Not only would the enemy take damage and deal less damage, but Wither’s effect of turning a player’s hearts black may create some confusion as to how many hearts they have left, just as an added bonus. While the effect’s duration is relatively short, the chaos that Necro could induce with this ability would provide a great deal of support for its team’s offense. Needless to say, the scaling of this ability resets upon death along with Necro’s killstreak. While it may appear that this ability scales incredibly quickly, having reached its maximum strength at only five kills, I’d imagine Necro wouldn’t be doing the brunt of the fighting on offense or defense, and thus not gathering kills as easily as a Soldier or Chemist would. Lastly, this ability isn't too much of a headache to understand just by playing a bit with it. If Necro has a killstreak, the ability gets stronger. Simple.

    Ability 2: Graves

    Necro’s second ability is to create structures to support teammates in their vicinity. Necro will begin a game with three Skulls, which will create a Grave when placed down. Each time the Necro kills an enemy, it will be given another Skull, essentially harvesting the souls of those it defeats. The number of Skulls will not reset upon death, so killing an enemy is the only way for Necro to get more. Only three graves can be active on the map at any given time, even if more Skulls are in the inventory. This would encourage the Necro to be more selective and smart with their structures, as they are not easily replaced. The Graves take the appearance of Mycelium topped with a flower pot, with the flower inside denoting which team the Grave benefits. See below:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Being in a four-block radius of a Grave grants the Necro and its teammates Absorption I for six seconds. This would slightly bolster teammates whether they be on offense, defense, or roaming. Graves cannot be placed within fifteen blocks of the flag and must be broken by destroying the Mycelium rather than the flower pot.

    IV. Conclusion:

    Foremost, I appreciate your willingness to read that long and exhausting rework proposal. I acknowledge that seeing all of these Necro reworks is becoming stale and mine is just another drop in the bucket. Regardless, I hope that you would take mine into some consideration. I understand that I don’t have a flawless answer to all of Necro’s problems and, for all I know, this may not be a balanced rework in the slightest. I would be thrilled to hear any and all feedback, whether it be a gracious +1 or a merciless grilling of this thread. Is an Iron Sword too much? Less steak? Change cooldowns and effects? Don’t hesitate to give your input. I look forward to your replies. Cheers.
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Gehenna_Beam

    Gehenna_Beam Wizard of Misery

    Joined:
    May 19, 2015
    Messages:
    2,319
    Ratings:
    +979
    This seems like the best necro rework I’ve seen in a while. I’ll just have to do some deep thinking on what’s too powerful or too weak and also see what others think.

    Question: Do the graves last six seconds, or is that just the absorption?
     
  3. Spades_

    Spades_ Least-Known-Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2016
    Messages:
    746
    Ratings:
    +189
    If this were necro I might be more compelled to play it when I’m not memeing. Sure why not.
    Also there’s not poll so there’s no effective way to measure the feedback

    @redslime use your dev powers good sir
     
  4. _Peppe

    _Peppe Legal Eagle

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2016
    Messages:
    7
    Ratings:
    +9
    I have received a fair bit of feedback since posting this thread, mostly via Discord and PMs, and will address some of the points that have been made for and against certain aspects of my rework. I won't be mentioning everyone who replied by name for the sake of time and because I'm not sure who has a forums account and who doesn't. Anyhow:

    The first major concern that was brought up was the problem associated with Necro snowballing. Simply stated, it would be frustrating to join a game late only to be confronted with an already buffed-up Necro, but it would also be frustrating to play as Necro if you'll just be focused in order to prevent snowballing. Thus, either playing against Necro would suck or playing as Necro would suck. In some respect, I was hoping to give Necro a more significant in-game presence, but not nearly as large of a presence as current high-priority threats such as Chemist and Archer. I figured that these would take precedent over targeting the Necro, but I also figured that Necro's sustainability would be more than enough to offset incessant harassment. Severely buffing or nerfing Necro would likely lead to further incentive to target it, so I'm leaning towards making slight tweaks to certain abilities, such as range, duration, and scaling, as to ensure that, while Necro is still threatening, it is not the priority target of any defense.

    Secondly, giving Necro an Iron Sword was percieved as a tad overboard. Frankly, I was feeling a bit apprehensive about that choice as I was typing up my initial draft. I agree that giving it the same damage output as a Soldier or Chemist, coupled with its bulk and abilities, would transform Necro into a monstrously bulky class able to unleash absolute havoc on pretty much anything you could throw at it. This is the opposite of what I had in mind when forming the idea for this rework. I had hoped to make Necro more of a rear-echelon class that benefited from playing smart rather than being another status effect inducing bruiser. As such, a Stone Sword or even its previous Gold Sword seem like far better alternatives in hindsight.

    Some believe that the structures that Necro could place would just encourage camping as to constantly reap the rewards of Absorption. Quite honestly, yes, that does seem a bit ridiculous and I was rather vague in the description of how the Graves would work. After giving it some thought, I may have overshot the duration of the Absorption effect and certainly the area of effect around each structure. What I see as a plausible remedy, at least for now, is to reduce the range of the effect to only a two block radius around a Grave so that players would have to make more of a conscious effort to pursue the Absorption benefit. Furthermore, six seconds of Absorption could lead to some ludicrous circumstances, such as a Chemist and Heavy grabbing two extra hearts of health before attacking the Blackout flagroom. As such, I think it would be expedient to reduce the duration of the Absorption effect to three or four seconds.

    To address Gehenna_Beam's question, it was my initial thought to have the Absorption last six seconds (which I have since reevaluated above) and for the Graves themselves to be indefinite until they are broken or the Necro dies. This urged me to think about players continuously circling back to a Grave to keep gaining Absorption repeatedly, which, again, was far from my initial intention. In the case of Engineer's Speed Pad, it can be used up to five times before breaking. I think a system akin to this for the Graves would help balance things out. Allowing only three uses of the Grave before it breaks would certainly prevent camping around the structure and encourage a more conservative and well-thought usage of these structures. Necro receiving Absorption from its own structures was brought into question, and, at this point, I am leaning towards no, mostly because I wish to avoid Necro accidentally using up one of its structures three uses on itself when placing it down.

    Players also questioned whether or not the aura ability would be too confusing to understand on the opposing side and if the aura ability itself was too powerful and campy. To address the first point, I wouldn't imagine that this ability would be unfathomable to new players. If the Wither effect only strikes when an enemy Necro is nearby, more often than not one would come to the conclusion that the Necro is responsible. Add particles within the radius to boot and this roadblock is all but solved. It's a concept not too far off from the Engineer's Healing Aura, and if players can understand that, I'd guess that this would be no different. To address the second point, it seemed as if the main grievance with this ability was its effect while used in enclosed spaces. I believe that this is a matter of perspective incredibly dependent on the ability's scaling. For instance, Necro using this ability with a meager killstreak of one only induces Wither I, which deals damage at a slower rate than poison and is little more than an inconvenience. However, using it at maximum power, inducing Wither III and Weakness II, would do a great deal of damage to any defense and expedite the team's ability to successfully steal the flag or, in some cases, break a stalemate. This is incredibly dependent on the Necro's ability to gain momentum and, with a considerably long cooldown time, the Necro should be choosing when to use this ability at the most opportune moment. Of course, the aura ability is far from perfect, and perhaps increasing the number of kills necessary to reach maximum strength or tweaking the cooldown time would be beneficial. At this point, I'm not certain, but I like to be quite flexible in regards to this rework.

    Lastly, I added a poll to the thread, as per Spades' request. I still do hope that I will receive more questions, criticisms, and replies in addition to poll votes. I'm thrilled that my thread has sparked a bit of a conversation on the matter.
    Cheers.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  5. auromelt

    auromelt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2016
    Messages:
    215
    Ratings:
    +115
    Discord:
    auromelt#4560
    This seems like a good rework, but Necro (as of right now and in your rework) doesn't have a particular niche that it fills and I think even with these gameplay changes I believe Necro still won't see that much gameplay (mostly in matches). As you stated before, the tome ability could help in stalemates and offensive pushes, but this requires Necro to have a pretty high killstreak, which is kinda inconvenient when you're talking abt it in a competitive aspect. I personally would like to see Necro fill in a particular niche (ie midfield as this class is somewhat of a midfield class). As of the general idea and abilities, I actually like them a lot! They are really cool and unique and it really fits the theme of the class. For the grave ability, maybe make it have a bigger increase in absorption hearts? I feel the ability is a little weak at the moment, and an increase in a heart or two would allow it to have a greater impact in battle. Anyways, it's a great idea and I think with some fine tuning and adjustments, it just might get implemented into the game!! Thanks for reading my feedback :smile: Let me know if I said something wrong lul peppe u beautiful sir
     
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