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Idea Assassin Adjustment

Discussion in 'Capture the Flag' started by Avalanche14, May 21, 2020.

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Which Suggestion is Your Favourite?

  1. Keep the Two Absorption Hearts

    42.9%
  2. Longer Duration Speed Boosts (Total 2)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. One Extra Speed Boost (Total 3)

    14.3%
  4. Instant Speed Boost Granted Upon Kill

    42.9%
  1. Avalanche14

    Avalanche14 Member

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    So my proposal is very simple and it stems from the idea that mobility is more beneficial to an assassin rather than extra health:

    Remove
    • Absorption Hearts on a Kill
    Add Any One Of:
    • Longer Duration Speed Boosts (Total 2)
    • One Extra Speed II Boost (Total 3)
    • Instant Speed Boost Granted Upon a Kill (Total 2)

    Why I Think the Absorption Hearts Should Be Removed
    At first, I really liked the added absorption hearts on an assassin kills because it rewards you for getting a kill and provides some extra protection when either attacking or being attacked. However, because the absorption hearts are taken away 22s after gaining them you have a limited window to use them "effectively" and often assassins aren't able to use them to any significant advantage. Let me briefly discuss the two situations I've outlined in bold above.

    1) Attacking Someone With The Absorption Hearts
    In the event of attacking someone with the absorption hearts (without an assassinate) the only targets an assassin should be able to kill in a 1v1 situation are ninjas and assassins assuming both players have similar levels of pvp skills (possibly pyros, mages, and archers too but I'd say this is unlikely). In addition, After assassinating someone and gaining the absorption hearts you likely have 0 or 1 speed boost in store. Personally, I find that I use 1 speed boost to reposition myself after assassinating someone so at that point I'm waiting for my speed boost to come back in order to strike which takes up a good chuck of that 22s time. Therefore, having limited targets to attack to begin with, only 22s to find someone to attack, and restricted mobility after assassinating someone means more often than not you aren't using the absorption hearts offensively.

    2) Being Attacked With The Absorption Hearts
    In the event you are attacked as assassin with absorption hearts and someone has the jump on you there is almost no way you can effectively fight back and win unless it's an assassin. You are better off trying to run away. In terms of the whole "the absorption hearts give you extra survivability" argument I'd argue it really doesn't in the case for assassins. This is because health becomes more effective with more protections and assassin has essentially no protections. Thus, a heavy with two absorption hearts has more effective health than an assassin with the two absorption hearts. I'm not sure how the calculations might work out but I suspect the effective health of an assassin with the absorption hearts is really near a half of a heart advantage over one without them.

    All in all the absorption hearts are not able to be used effectively while attacking because of limited target selection, a small time frame to attack with the hearts, and reduced mobility after assassinating someone. In the situation you are being attacked as an assassin your effective health does not contribute to your survivability in any significant manner.


    Why I Think Assassins Should be Given Extra Mobility
    The basis for this request stems from my personal experience that a mobile assassin is a more effective assassin. A majority of my deaths either come from running out of speed boost and I can't run away or dying during the assassinate phase. The dying in assassinate phase I'm fine with and it makes sense. However, I believe adding an additional speed boost to an assassin, longer duration speed boosts, or an instant speed boost upon a kill will boost survivability by being able to avoid threats more effectively vs the absorption hearts.

    The Thought Process - Boosting Survivability Through Repositioning
    Once I fine a target, ideally I would like to use 1 speed boost to get in and 1 speed boost to get out. However, in practise i find myself more often than not using 2 speed boosts while going in and having none in reserve to get out (in the event i survive that is :grinning:). This likely stems from the fact that i like to be moving at all times so when i find a target I already have 1 speed boost used up leaving only 1 to go in for a kill. Now, some people might say I shouldn't be aimlessly wandering around but I assure you I'm not. It's imperative for an assassin to keep adjusting their position as to not become predictable especially against higher level pvpers. If you can consistently switch up where you attack from you will always keep attackers guessing (this is apart of the mind games people talk about when playing this class). Therefore, to be able to more effectively roam and change tactical positions i believe it would be more beneficial for assassins to have additonal mobility.

    1) Longer Duration Speed Boosts (Total 2)
    Longer duration speed boosts would help with the whole "use 1 speed boost to get in and one to get out" by allowing more time for the assassin to approach their target. However, I must say this is my least favourite proposal because the existing problem of using 1 to roam and 1 to go in for a kill will still exist. Although I do believe this additional mobility will still be more beneficial over the absorption hearts.

    2) One Extra Speed Boost (Total 3)
    Adding an extra speed boost would essentially add a "roamer" speed boost which would allow assassins the ability to reposition themselves frequently without having to worry if they will have a boost to get out from a kill.
    This is my second ideal fix however I think its the most susceptible to the argument that this would give to much mobility to assassins and non speed classes would have almost no potential to catch them and thus kill them.

    3) Instant Speed Boost Granted Upon a Kill (Total 2)
    This is my favourite proposal because it immediately fixes the problem of not having speed boost to exit a kill. Now if you use your last boost to go in for a kill you are TRULY all in because if you are unsuccessful you will likely die, but if you succeed you will get an immediate speed boost to help you get out. Those two extra hearts aren't going to help you in the middle of a dense battle if you can't get out.

    Summary
    Overall, I would like to see a slight change to assassin where the class gains additional mobility instead of having absorption hearts gained upon a kill in order to increase its survivability. Assassin in its current state isn't able to effectively use its gained absorption hearts on an assassin kill because of limited target selection, a 22s time constraint, and reduced mobility. Furthermore, the effective health gained from the absorption hearts is not significant in increasing the class' survivability post kill. On the other hand, giving assassins additional mobility through one of the three options outlined will help increase survivability by providing additional time to get in and out of kills and repositioning around the map.

    P.S.
    Just a little side note but I used to play assassin quite a bit in the MCPVP days so this is where a lot of my judgment is coming from. I know assassin isn't the most "popular" class so I hope people take it easy on me lol.
    Thx for reading
     
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  2. Daveeeeeeeee

    Daveeeeeeeee Well-Known Member
    Build Team

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    Assassin doesn’t need an even bigger buff. If anything the class should get slowness after an assassination imo.
     
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  3. Avalanche14

    Avalanche14 Member

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    Well I guess my whole point is assassin didn't really get a buff with the absorption hearts so i was suggesting slightly improving mobility in some way shape or form; something that could actually improve QOL for assassins. Adding slowness after a kill I think will kind of ruin the feel for the kit as you speed into a kill and then become super slow at the most vulnerable part of your attack sequence. This slowness effect sounds more like a kamikaze strike were you go in knowing you are full well going to die. Keep in mind, assassins are meant to get in and out of kills quickly.
     
  4. Ugianskis

    Ugianskis Member

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    So. In theory this sounds great for assassin. However currently assassin is broken. I am biased as an offence main but as an already almost impossible class to block against because of ping i would never want to give them more speed to catch up to me. I don't play assassin due to my normal ping my hits dont phase through blocking people. This just sounds like a buff to a class that doesn't need a buff. However if assassin got an extra speed boost instead of another assassinate after killing someone you have +100 from me but that doesn't sound like what you are saying.
     
  5. Avalanche14

    Avalanche14 Member

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    Yeah I think assassin as fine as is. I just wanted to see a transfer of weight from the absorption hearts to some mobility because they don't really seem useful. In terms of getting a kill without an assassinate i think its still more beneficial to give an assassin the instant assassinate rather than the speed boost. However, I'd be for this change (if we agree it's a nerf) as long as one of the other mobility additions I recommended is added along with the removal of the absorption hearts.
     
  6. Foodcourt

    Foodcourt Global MOD

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    I have to agree with what Dave and Ugi said above, Assassin is already in a place where it is extremely powerful and impacts the game no matter what. Lets say you do not have your assassinate, just by standing there and having your presence be felt, players around you will block in fear of being instakilled. Because of this, the fellow defenders around you now have the advantage of being able to attack an immobile target. To me, the absorption hearts Assassin gains is just a bonus and, as you have pointed out, they are situational and many times do not offer a significant advantage to the player. However, the class is not reliant on absorption as its impact stems mainly from being able to get the instakill quickly and die shortly thereafter.

    While I agree with you that absorption hearts do not provide assassin with much of an advantage, your proposed reworks would make it already more difficult to deal with than it already is. I personally think Assassin is in a balanced spot right now, but adding your proposed changes would tip the balance and make the class too powerful. If you remove absorption hearts, the class is still very viable, but if you modify speed boosts to give the class even more mobility, gameplay issues would most likely arise.
     
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  7. Avalanche14

    Avalanche14 Member

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    You have a fair point. It just seems strange to me that a class can have a mechanic that serves almost no use so I was just proposing ways to try to rework it so that i makes sense for an assassin. I think the best option I proposed (if you don't want to change things up a whole lot) is just to increase the duration of the current speed boost by like 2s or something along those lines and get rid of the absorption hearts. I doubt that even this change would push assassin out of a balanced state.
     
  8. Greenfoot5

    Greenfoot5 Member

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    It's a tough spot. On the one hand, it's a mostly useless mechanic, but at least it does something. The only other thing I can think of, is make the absorption last longer. This means it's more likely to be useful, without giving too much of a buff. But then again, is even a small buff too much? Would you then have to debuff the class? How do you debuff the class? Grant it one and a half hearts? I don't play enough of the class or play against it either to tell you.
     
  9. Dequoy

    Dequoy Active Member

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    In addition to removing the mostly useless absorption, if a noise that all nearby players hear once the assassination powder is actually activated is introduced then I'd say allow a free automatic speed boost for the same duration as a speed boost sugar after the assassination weakness wears out. That way it isn't fully exploited, but it also provides much needed escape aid when sugar supplies are low.

    Having a "NOW I'M USING MY ASSASSINATION ABILITY!" noisy alert is a huge nerf for Assassins, but it still likely wouldn't balance the ping advantage issue that some Assassins have exploited a bit too much for quite some time. Also, if they had the fastest movement granted to them immediately after a successful assassination then even if a different nearby player successfully blocked in time they would have too much trouble swinging at the Assassin who is probably already out of reach -- so they would need to prepare for Assassins in TWO ways: blocking ahead of time AND having a way to minimize the Assassin's escape route options (which is pretty much already the case, but it would be even worse since it would be free and might be followed up by having up to two more sprints occur immediately after it).

    Getting the free speed boost AFTER the weakness wears off makes more sense too. While I'm feeling weakened, I can't run my fastest without some serious sugar helping me get hyper unless I give myself some time to regain my strength first. :stuck_out_tongue:
     
    #9 Dequoy, May 21, 2020
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  10. Greenfoot5

    Greenfoot5 Member

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    "issue that some Assassins have exploited a bit too much for quite some time"

    Then a nerf shouldn't affect all assassins.
     
  11. Slingh

    Slingh Active Member

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    I feel like having to deal with ninjas who 4 block you, scouts who swap you from half way across the map (then procede to death tag you), AND an assassin with 3 speed boosts, would make offense much harder than it already is. Casual offense is already seemingly impossible when there are 30+ people online. Not to mention, a good assassin in Competitive ctf would absolutely find a way to abuse this buff to the class.

    Instead of giving defense yet another buff, I say we start buffing offense. Offense has been wayyy to hard for a long time. Buffing offense might make some of the 70% of players maining defense switch to offense.
     
  12. Avalanche14

    Avalanche14 Member

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    I think I need to clarify that I'm not advocating for a buff but rather a slight rework to the class so that the mobility additions are roughly equal to the loss in the absorption hearts. So overall a net neutral trade that makes it so assassins actually get some more usefulness out of the trade off. I realize now that granting an extra speed boost or an instant speed boost after a kill might not be an equal trade off so the best solution would be like a 2-4s increase in duration on the current speed boost.

    Current sprinting speed in MC is 5.612m/s and with speed II it is 7.857m/s. So overall the net difference is 2.245m/s. I propose giving an additional 2s increase so an assassin can travel roughly 4.5 blocks further each speed boost. This may seem like a buff but I'd argue not many people would even notice a difference in the speed duration including assassins. And with the offset of the removal of the absorption hearts I think this could be a way to achieve the net neutral rework. Again, I'm not looking for a way to buff assassin but shift its current absorption heart advantage into something more usefully for assassins regardless of how small it is.
     
  13. Ugianskis

    Ugianskis Member

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    I couldn't agree more in Comp ctf their is already a big problem with ping and assassins' in which blocking is really annoying. In casual a new thing that seems to be happening is their will be like 3-4 assassins in one flag room. This makes it nearly impossible unless you get lucky to get out without blocking and giving assassins another chance to catch up to you is going to make offence even harder then it already is.
    As to your point how is giving an assassin a more useful feature not a buff? Rn absorption doesn't hurt the class but doesn't help it really because it is already week. However with a new Speed boost will allow for good pvper assassin to get you into combo chains with speed 3. I honestly think giving it more speed will greatly throw the balance of an already broken class more broken.
     
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  14. Avalanche14

    Avalanche14 Member

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    I'm not sure how I can be more clear but I'm trying to offset the small buff that the absorption hearts gave to assassins into an equally as small buff into mobility for assassins. It may seem like a buff but I'm trying my best to propose a solution to make the originally small buff of the absorption hearts actually useful for assassins. I recognize that its tough and I don't intend to buff assassins but rather take a unuseful mechanical buff into a useful mechanical buff.

    As for assassins being broken I have to disagree. I think a lot of the precised brokenness comes from their ability to instantly kill someone which is understandable. However, assassins are equally punished during the assassinate phase by dying if they get hit by anything whatsoever. I'd argue archers are more broken as an instakill class because they have no threat of death when headshotting people and if someone is up close they can hold a fight with most classes unlike assassins.
     
  15. Foodcourt

    Foodcourt Global MOD

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    I fully understand your point that you want to make the small buff of absorption hearts into one that is a better version of a small buff. However, I do not see the two buffs on the same level of impact. Like Ugi said above, good PvP'ers can already put you combos with the current layout of Assassin, adding an additional speed boost or increasing the duration of a speed boost would give Assassin players a larger advantage, versus what we have now where the absorption hearts are negligible in most situations.

    I by no means play Assassin regularly, so coming from you as an Assassin main, the fact that an almost useless ability exists in the game (absorption hearts) is not ideal for gameplay. Are there any other solutions or reworks that you can think of that would be a beneficial exchange for taking away absorption? I think giving Assassin more mobility (which I mentioned in my previous comment) would present gameplay issues, but any other suggestions could be valuable to replace an ability that is essentially useless.
     
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  16. DTJ5511

    DTJ5511 Member

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    I've been playing offense more recently in PPMs and I can say assassin is by far one of the most busted classes in the game right now. If someone plays flagroom assassin with a Pyro, you have no choice to either block or get frenzied. Buffing assassin will just make offense even more aids to play. Outside of chemist being broken too, it's really the only class that can get out of a pyro-assassin flag room. That's just my opinion though
     
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  17. Avalanche14

    Avalanche14 Member

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    If mobility is thrown out of the question, even a tiny one such as a duration increase, I'm not sure there's any change that could be implemented where it becomes useful to an assassin. It seems the change will have to be as equally useless as the absorption hearts one for it to be considered which is not what I'm going for. Furthermore, if a majority of people believe assassin is busted I'm starting to think any change that could be deemed useful will just be labelled a massive buff which kills any potential for an adjustment.
     
  18. Ugianskis

    Ugianskis Member

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    Ok so my opinion on assassin is it needs a TOTAL rework kind of like necro but I have no idea what that would be. My thinking behind this is because right now if you have a ping advantage you can make blocking really hard to do. But brawl from my limited knowledge of owning a server or ping is their is really now way to fix that. There are multiple clips of good players holding block and still dying which is really frustrating. However i have no idea what the rework is but I think that is really the only option.
     
  19. Slingh

    Slingh Active Member

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    Assassin being able to kill people who are blocking (if you have good ping ofc) seems like a huge buff to the class in itself. I’ll say this once again, instead of making defense easier than it already is, we need to buff offense. In most other games, the skill gap difference between defending and offending x objective is no where as high as CTF is.

    I think with the current way assassin is, most players who main the class can agree that it is fine the way it is. Ninja is supposed to be the class which is able to get across the map quickly so as to recov. Giving assassin a longer speed duration, or even giving it 3 speed boosts would upset the already shaky balance of classes in CTF.

    Anyways, I encourage you to try offending in a few PPM’s. You’ll notice very quickly how powerful assassin itself already is.
     
  20. Forleb

    Forleb Well-Known Member

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    Even in the casual meta, Assassin functions just fine from an objective standpoint. The class is simple enough on the surface that nowadays you have to rely on knowing how to do good fake pulls on your redstone, finding spots people often disregard, etc., to be effective. Assassin is (thankfully) not one of those classes that is "OP" simply because of its structure, and I personally see no reason to buff or nerf it.
     
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