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One Point Sixteen

Discussion in 'Raid' started by Vendor, Aug 19, 2020.

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  1. Vendor

    Vendor Member

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    Hi all,

    This is gonna be a long post probably, so strap in. I've been playing raid for 3 years now, days and days of my time put into this server, its community, etc. I was staff on this in order to help it more, and recently went for it again for the same reason. Knowing all of this, im gonna talk about my thoughts of the past couple weeks.

    First of all, I want to genuinely thank Carno and the staff team for this update. No joke. Even though i don't agree with it, which is what im going to talk about here, Carno took a massive risk all to try and revive raid. And i respect him a lot for that. I just want this post to be a sort of "we tried, and its not going to work, and heres why” sort of thing.

    Second of all, this is not a slander post towards anyone at ALL. Not carno, not Eil, and ESPECIALLY not RyGuy. There have been a ton of issues with the beta map, that isnt a secret. But anyone who knows an inkling about coding in minecraft knows that attempting to use the same plugins skipping 8 full release editions is BOUND to have a ton of bugs. He is trying his best, he has a real life, and I have heard of some of the IRL issues that are gating him now and the past couple weeks and they are leaps and bounds more important.. Ryguy, I appreciate all the work you're doing.

    Here we go:

    I remember the premise and reasoning behind the idea to move to 1.16. I was in a call with putty, Carno, Ritzy, and cocap, where we were talking about raid related things. Someone (I think Ritzy) brought up 1.16 to which i immediately tried to shoot down. In response to this, putty, who rarely unmutes in this meetings unless spoken directly too and just listens, unmuted and told me a statistic that slightly over half of raids playerbase, currently, was on the newer version. I was shocked at this, and hearing this info made me think that with proper advertisement and with the update in proper hands that it could revive raids playerbase.

    This still could be correct, but even knowing this 1.16 is not the direction raid needs to go. Im going to explain why.

    PVP:

    For my first year, i was playing on a horrible macbook air that ran constant 30fps. I was absolutely awful at pvp. After finally getting back on my main pc, all i did was PvP because I finally could again. Tracking is great and all, but all of my fondest memories of raid came from pvp. Teamfights, koths, etc. Jeenss and I won a 2v4 against SkiD all p4. Those are the type of things that kept me going back to raid every day. Envy was the best pvp team i have ever been in and debatably the best the server had ever seen at its peak.

    Knowing all this, PvP is, broken to say the least with the new update. Knockback is virtually non existent, and i dont know if this is something that can even be fixed with a 1.8 plugin, its more than likely so deep rooted in the newer versions it will never change. Durability is insane, if people didnt quickdrop (Because strength is still out of control) every fight, fights would take upwards of 10-15 minutes and im not even joking. For someone who clicks 13 cps that is literally impossible for me. The winner of the fight is literally whoever doesnt have to refill first, because the other person will be able to stick on them like glue and it is near impossible to knock them away from you because of how horrible the KB is. If youd like to see for yourself, take a look at #off-topic in raid community discord, where it shows me getting a jumpcrit combo on someone and they just dont move at all. Its braindead, and its boring, and there isnt much skill involved.

    Not to mention the new kiting tools. Riptide Tridents, Potions of the Turtle master, Dophins grace. People were hardly punished for being caught in outnumbers before, and now assuming you dont quickdrop, kiting is easier than ever.

    ECONOMY:

    Now, this isnt as important because the market has been disabled all map. But assume it wasnt. The gold eco system of raid cannot exist in 1.16. Bastions, nether gold, mesa biomes, the gold gen is too insane. My entire team had a combined ten thousand gold on the second day of the map, running to make bases in nether. Thats insane. I had suggested the fixed economy and was met with some backlash and some agreeing. Raids gold system is definitely unique, but it cannot exist with the new update. Either remove all the new gold gen, or change the market.



    Now, what does this all mean? All of this can be fixed, right? Just remove the bad stuff, and you now have a balanced gamemode?

    Not really.

    One thing Ritzy said that stuck with me in that original discord call with putty and carno was "If you're going to update to 1.16, keep everything as vanilla as possible. Change as LITTLE as you possible can" This is especially relevant now. Because in order to balance this entire update, we've already had to:

    -Remove villager breeding
    -Removing bottling XP
    -Remove Shields
    -Remove end crystals
    -Remove end cities
    -Disable Iron nether tracking (????????)

    And we will probably have to:

    -Remove riptide
    -Remove / Greatly reduce nether gold
    -Remove Nether bastions
    -Rework Basalt biomes so traveling doesn't make you want to brick yourself
    -Fix KB to make PvP playable
    -Fix Strength pots
    -Fix insane durability
    -Find a counterbalance with removing villager breeding, since p4 is way harder to get now for some reason.
    -Probably some more im missing.

    Now. My final statement, after seeing what we already have to do and what we will NEED to STILL do (I have gathered all this with 2days playtime, btw) all in all i will say:

    Whats the point.

    Whats the point of updating if half the mechanics have to be gutted for balance reasons, making it even HARDER for new players than 1.8 was because they cant do half the things they normally could. Whats the point of updating and adding all this new mechanics if it makes the server harder overall, not easier. Whats the point of updating and and acting like its a bandaid fix to raids core issues.

    You might as well just go back to 1.8 at that point, cause when its all said and done, all the 1.16 additions are gonna be removed except fking turtles.

    TLDR; Updating was pointless because half the new things are gonna need to be removed anyway and it just makes the learning curve bigger for no reason. I respect carno and the staff team for trying something new, but there has to be a point where we accept it didnt work and just keep trying with 1.8 or just accept the gamemode is dead and make an HCF server or something. Do i know what raid needs to be popular again? Hell no. But i really dont think this is it.

    - Vendorggeration :smile:
     
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    #1 Vendor, Aug 19, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  2. TewClickz

    TewClickz Member

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    u still are <3. But yeah I agree with mainly everything. A lot of my Raid/Survival PvP memories are pvp related in some way and using a version of minecraft that has dog ass pvp just feels incredibly ****ty to play. I would deadass play if brawl had an HCF server. I know alot of people wouldn't like that, because Brawl's playerbase isn't really familiar with HCF, but there's a reason why HCF servers are succesful.
    They do the following things:
    • Keep the gameplay as vanilla as possible
    • Keep the mechanics as vanillas as possible
    • Add unique kits to make gameplay fun and interesting, yet have a base diamond kit that the map is revolved around so fights are mostly fair
    • Have active Owners and Devs that update the server daily/weekly
    • And they generally allow their players to be more toxic than Brawl does
    HCF will probably never happen on Brawl, but Raid felt like HCF for soup which is why I played it. Now it just feels like a hot mess that I want no part of.
     
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  3. Carnotauros

    Carnotauros McPvP & Events Manager

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    Discord:
    Leon#9397
    Will address most of the points that you've made in this thread at a later date, but for now:
    Riptide will only be disabled in combat
    We've changed it so that it only drops one nugget, should be enough
    We could possibly replace gold with something else, so it will be rewarding to loot them still
    CalledRainer had a perfect fix for this, just changing all the blocks on the top of nether to netherrack, which we unfortunately can't implement mid map, but will be possible for next map - this would barely change the basalt biomes.
    Strength pots have always been nerfed on raid, the plugin just broke when we updated it, without us noticing.
    I haven't seen that p4 is harder to get, but I will look into allowing villager breeding again.
     
  4. Iqn_

    Iqn_ Well-Known Member

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    If you are going to have a server thats mainly with pvp it should be 1.8. We have all noticed how pvp sucks on 1.16
     
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  5. Vendor

    Vendor Member

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    you’re missing my point. I am not here crying that these need to be changed to make raid playable again, because besides the knock back these aren’t all massive changes that would make raid 100% playable for me overnight. The point is they’re things that NEED to be done which takes away from the 1.16 update, Only increasing the learning curve of raid more and more. New player logs on “what? Why can’t I make end crystals, I just grinded so hard for those! I have two villagers here in a farm; why aren’t they breeding?” Etc. You have to change them but changing them sucks for new players. It’s a double edged sword.

    Explaining raid to new players is like “yeah so it’s basically just 1.16 survival, except you can’t do this list of about 40 things, also here’s tracking, also here’s 20 plugins, also auto text on Lunar Client is bannable good luck”

    raid stayed in 1.8 and 1.7 for so long because nothing needed to be changed, the vanilla version of Minecraft was insanely balanced for raid as a game mode.
     
    #5 Vendor, Aug 19, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  6. sch104

    sch104 Team Ice

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    Will be disabled during a long pvp timer, which will not be broken like the last combat tag was
    One solution is to make these ores either only drop the ore, so you have to smelt it, or drop only 1 nugget.
    We could try to reduce the gold blocks spawns on world generation, I do not know how this works, but there are solutions here too.
    We plan to make nether travel much easier, more like all nether travel before 1.16
    This is something we will look into.
    This is on the list, the list is long and ryguy is only 1 guy so be patient, he is making better progress than any raid dev in years.
    I'm not actually certain with this, but don't axes do more damage to armor? If not that could be a cool feature.
    -Find a counterbalance with removing villager breeding, since p4 is way harder to get now for some reason.[/QUOTE]

    This should be addressed, good suggestion.
     
  7. Vendor

    Vendor Member

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    again, while I know you are planning to address all this, you’re missing the point of me listing it out. You have two options with 1.16, either change a ton of things and make it harder for new players to figure out what’s disabled / what isn’t, or leave it all in and have a very broken game mode. This is why raid in 1.16 is flawed fundamentally. This was the whole point of the essay I just wrote

    also axes doing more damage to armor is the biggest myth in the game. That only happens in mcmmo
     
  8. sch104

    sch104 Team Ice

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    My option is as follows:

    Remove as little as possible. The changes to the base game are all amazing, apart from the God awful pvp mechanics.

    Disable certain things, only during pvp and events. This will be easy to find out, as it will be neatly organized in a forum post, linked by an in game news link that periodically shows up.

    With things like cross bows, if you can kite for 20-30 seconds to use riptide and escape, props to you, well deserved escape.
     
  9. Vendor

    Vendor Member

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    > well deserved escape

    If kiting weren’t hilariously easy I’d agree with you.
     
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  10. sch104

    sch104 Team Ice

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    Sorry, you must have misinterpreted the context I was replying in regards to. I meant this after the combat tag is implemented, and kiting is more difficult.
     
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